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John Mathews
01-04-2002, 11:41 AM
Does anybody have any advice on fixing loose nickel ferrules on my pipe? With the cold weather, and taking my pipes from home to lessons to home to work to home, etc., the ferrules have come loose. I'm not inclined to send the pipes out for repair, so I'm hoping that someone out there has a recommendation for something I can do at home.

Stormy
01-04-2002, 11:54 AM
Remove the ferrule and clean the area.
Apply a few strands of yellow hemp and 1 or 2 spots of glue. (superglue, white PVA etc.)
Replace the ferrule, protect with a cloth and using a soft headed hammer gently tap back into position.
Should do the trick. :)

The Wick
01-04-2002, 12:12 PM
There are many types of adhesives out there that'll work, however, if you have access to somebody who could thread both the would and the ferrule...that'd be the best solution.

There are many manufacturers out there currently that are cutting corners in order to meet consumer demands; the problem you've encountered is simply one way of speeding up production.

Cheers,
Doug :rolleyes:

John Mathews
01-04-2002, 02:35 PM
Thanks for the advice, Stormy. I'll try it out. Any advice on polishing the ferrules while I'm at it? As long as they're off, I might as well give 'em a shine.

Doug, your point re: threading is well taken. However, I don't think the expense and time would be worth it. My pipes are a basic, utilitarian set of Grainger & Campbells, about 25 or 30 years old--solid pipes, good tone, but not the kind of set I want to sink a lot of money into. (Of course, I've recently bought a new BW chanter, new drone reeds, and various other gaudy trinkets and baubles, so time will tell :) )

The Wick
01-04-2002, 04:12 PM
No worries M8, just a suggestion. :cool:

Mitch Man
01-04-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by The Wick:
There are many manufacturers out there currently that are cutting corners in order to meet consumer demands; the problem you've encountered is simply one way of speeding up production.
Cheers,
Doug :rolleyes:

Cutting corners and Poor Quality control is what
a certain maker would like everyone to believe!
I think "all" makers do their damdest to put out
a good product!

The thought that a threaded ferrule is superior,
is a myth that was started by a certain manufacturer to promote their idea of how to make a bagpipe. It doesn't make all other bagpipes inferior if their not threaded.

I have seen threaded ferrules come loose too,
and many old pipes have hemp on the threads.

Threading is an obsolete procedure and is not
necessarily a secure bond for joining two
different materials. (Plastic & wood or Metal & wood) You cannot get enough torque to accomplish
this as the wooden threads are too delicate and would be stripped if any pressure were to be applied.

Pipe makers in the old days did not have the
luxury of good bonding agents, why do you think
that a greater majority of the modern pipe makers
abandoned this concept?

It's not to save time as most parts are now produced by machines, so threading is not a
time issue! It only takes seconds to produce a thread!

It actually takes more time for the Bonding
Process as the maker has to apply the glue and
let it cure for a couple days before they can
turn the Billet/ferrule combo on the lathe to
ensure the billet and the ferrule are concentric.

The reason the bond has failed is because the wood
is drying up and shrinking, it's more of a problem
of the maker not curing the wood properly to
eliminate this problem.

Wood is a problem that "all" bagpipe makers are
having in terms of warping and splitting because
they have no control over the wood quality.

Wood is not manufactured, it is grown and harvested, so any maker will have problems and
any maker that claims they don't have cracks is
just simply lieing!

Accroutments are not a big deal as the accroutment's only function is to guard against
damage to the edges of the drones and stocks, it will not prevent splitting!

If the accroutments come loose at any time, throw a strand of Electrical tape around the wood and then bind the ferrule to the wood, don't even bother with glue!

You now have a Pressure Fit that will last a
lifetime as plastic tape does not deteriate! :)

Glad I could help! :D

JM

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

Chris Hamilton
01-04-2002, 07:16 PM
Pipes moving from one climate to another can have ferrule loosening problems. With some manufacturers, the ferrules are hammered on (friction fit) onto a new pipe as tight as possible. But ship that pipe to a drier climate and some change may occur. A little wood glue fixes it right up.

Chris

Scott Russell
01-05-2002, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Mitch Man:


Cutting corners and Poor Quality control is what
a certain maker would like everyone to believe!
I think "all" makers do their damdest to put out
a good product!

The thought that a threaded ferrule is superior,
is a myth that was started by a certain manufacturer <span style="font-weight: bold">to promote their idea of how to make a bagpipe. It doesn't make all other bagpipes inferior if their not threaded.

I have seen threaded ferrules come loose too,
and many old pipes have hemp on the threads.

</span>

I have to agree here with John. Too much emphasis has been placed on loose ferrules, and not enough emphasis on tone.
I work for a TTC and we torque our bus tires to 500 ft/lbs, and then retorque them after 100 miles or so. All this and they still come loose every now and then. Why? Because of the extreme heat from the brakes, and the expansion and contraction of the metals, on top of the vibration.
With metal ferrules the thread depth will be so shallow that it would be hard to get any reasonable torque applied to it. So yes you can thread a ferrule, and put a lick of epoxy between as well. But the wood and metal expand and contract at very different rates, with the metal expanding and contracting much faster than the wood. So whether it is threaded and glued, or just glued. It will still come loose at some point. Most likely when the wood is at it's driest (winter) and then the metal ferrule is heated up (polishing).
Now threading a bushing or mount is a different story. It is a good thing since the two materials are much closer in make-up, and a deeper thread can be cut. Like Chris and John have both said. A loose ferrule is not a big deal.
IMHO

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Scott Russell ]

HotScot
01-05-2002, 05:46 PM
Hi, Bob Shepherd told me he doesn't glue the ferrules because of changes in the wood with various changes in humidity to wherever the pipes are being shipped. It's not a big deal to put a little superglue or epoxy under them. Also I have a silver shining cloth I use to shine them up. You can get this in a hardware store.

Slainte

Elaine

hayword
01-06-2002, 09:10 AM
One trick I learned while working at an instrument repair shop works well for pipes also. Clarinets have the same problems of ferrules coming loose. Here's what we did.

Get a zip-lock bag and cut out a piece about twice as big around (or square) as the ferrule. Place the plastic tightly over the drone or stock and then place the ferrule on over top of it. You want something thick enough so that the ferrule tightens up before you get it half way back on. You may have to try different thickness bags to find a sheet of plastice the right thickness. Push the ferrule on by pressing it into a door jam or something similar. Once its about 3/4 of the way on, use an exacto to cut the part of the plastic that is trailing out around the back edge of the ferrule. Finish pressing all the way on. Now the opening of the drone or stock should have a tight covering of plastic blocking the opening. Take the exacto knife again and cut this out, running the blade right between the wood and the ferrule. If the blade is new and sharp, this should cut it out perfectly. And there you have it!

The advantages of this over some of the other methods are that the plastic won't break down over the years like hemp might (though I have used hemp myself in a pinch and had no probs) and, more importantly, the ferrule can be put on very tightly without the chance of bunching up the material down at the bottom of the ferrule seat as it goes on.

'word

Jim McGillivray
01-07-2002, 09:30 AM
I disagree that ferrules falling off is "no big deal." There have been running threads on this topic on this forum and on RMMB off for three years. If it's no big deal, why do so many people talk about it? And of course the folks who have the answers are those with years and years of experience with pipes. But what about the newbies who are buying most of the new pipes?

For example, I recently saw someone with a lovely set of pipes that were eight months old and had a one-inch streamlet of superglue that had run from a formerly loose ferrule onto the combing of the blackwood. The mount fell off and someone fairly knowledgeable suggested a bonding agent. Apparently she used what she thought was as little glue as possible, but it still ran overnight and made a frustrating mess of her $2,000 pipes.

As a seller of bagpipes I feel obliged with at least one maker's pipes I've sold in the past to tell the buyers that there is a very good chance most of the ferrules will fall off their pipes over the course of the first two years. Having just written a cheque or had their Mastercard charged thousands of dollars, they look at me with disbelief in their eyes and I don't blame. I doubt that very many sellers tell their customers this when they pick up their pipes, which makes the job of selling pipes that will fall apart fairly easy.

What would you do if you bought a $2500 stereo and after 10 months all the knobs fell off? And then if you called the dealer and he/she said, "Hey, that's normal, glue them back on."

I posted to this effect on RMMB some time ago,but why do we happily accept instruments from makers with mounts that fall off, blowsticks that are too long, drone reeds that don't go, chanter reeds that are too hard and out of tune, bags with no moisture control, hemp that turns....

At home, I have silver and ivory sets of 1912 Hendersons, 1903 MacDougalls and 1948 Sinclair pipes. I have never had a loose mount on any of them. So don't say it can't be done. It should be done.

Cheerios,
Jim McGillivray

GreenPiper
01-07-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Jim McGillivray:
I disagree that ferrules falling off is "no big deal......
I have never had a loose mount on any of them. So don't say it can't be done. It should be done.

Cheerios,
Jim McGillivray


I would be mortified if I paid that much for pipes and the mounts fell off. I have not had this issue with my affordable pipes.

So what recommendation does anyone have on how we get the word out to vendors that this is unacceptable?

"Quality Counts, No Loose Mounts, Quality Counts, No Loose Mounts!"

Stormy
01-07-2002, 09:57 AM
While I agree with Jim about products being made properly in the first place, it has to be accepted that - a) accidents can happen and b) nothing is ever perfect and c) the wood can expand and contract.
With this in mind it is better to know how to fix a simple thing properly. The piper with glue all over her drones will know how much glue to use next time and might learn how to clean up a set of pipes.
You may be right Jim when you say it shouldn't happen but it does. Basic maintenance is what is needed here, not passing the buck onto the manufacturers.

James Hopkins
01-07-2002, 11:10 AM
I bought my MacLellans from Ron Bowen about a year ago. When I got them, the ring caps rattled so much they sounded like a bell choir. Ron and I both rightly blamed this on dry winter conditions. Sure enough, when the climate changed here in the midwestern US, the caps seized up tight as a funeral drum. Now that winter is here again, the caps are getting jingly again. I'm not the empirical scientific type, but I'm thinking from the evidence that the loosening is caused by the climate change. For the record, Roddy's ferrules don't look like they could be driven off even with an air hammer.

However, one individual in our piping circle has old Shepherds. The ferrules--all of 'em--come off as easy as a napkin ring. I'm not saying this means anything about the various manufacturers...Another fellow has Shepherds and the ferrules don't budge...Different wood? More frequent playing? Different ferrule application technique?

Mitch Man
01-07-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Jim McGillivray:
At home, I have silver and ivory sets of 1912 Hendersons, 1903 MacDougalls and 1948 Sinclair pipes. I have never had a loose mount on any of them. So don't say it can't be done. It should be done.

Cheerios,
Jim McGillivray

Jim, your vintage pipes have had a chance to settle with age and they will experience very little change.

To hold all manufacturers of "New" bagpipes to
this standard is totally unfair and unrealistic
in terms of simple physics.

I would bet in the first 10 years of those 1912 Henderson pipes you now own, that they went thru
some type of repair or adjustment for loose ferrules as "all" ABW goes thru a settling process
when first machined. (Stress Relief)

Inventing a standard that doesn't exist is dangerous in terms of people's expectations.
The wood will change, threading will not do anything to change this.

Even the $60,000 dollar cars Rust!

cheers

JM

John McCain
01-07-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Mitch Man:
The wood will change, threading will not do anything to change this.

The wood may change very little depending on the seasoning/ageing the wood has been allowed to do. Of course, the quality of the wood is a factor.

What threading does is allow more surface area between the wood and the mount/ferrule. It's simply a superior manufacturing process!

Best,
John

Mitch Man
01-07-2002, 04:53 PM
Threading superior?

Then why do I still see threads covered in hemp
on many older pipes? You cannot argue the law of
physics.

JM

John McCain
01-07-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Mitch Man:
Threading superior?

Then why do I still see threads covered in hemp
on many older pipes? You cannot argue the law of
physics.

What part of the law of physics addresses hemp?

Put it this way. If you were to be suspended from a great height, would you want the hook holding you nailed or screwed?

Threading is superior to a simple pressure fit! The only reason not to use it is for savings in the cost of manufacturing! You can't argue with quality engineering and design!

Best, John

Mitch Man
01-07-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by John McCain:
You can't argue with quality engineering and design!
Best, John

Lets talk about design!
None of the Pipe Makers are design engineers and
trying to directly bond two different materials that will change is piss poor engineering!

If I were to design a bagpipe, I wouldn't attempt
a Direct Bond between two diffent materials of which I know will change, because the surface to surface contact will lose any friction it had when the the wood shinks. When this happens you now have to apply more torque with a good chance that you will strip the threads because the crest of the threads is all that is holding the mating part on. There is no strength in this type of bond and it will surely fail.

The real solution to this problem is to create
an expansion type joint where a flexable buffer material is used to absorb any movement in the
materials, then you would have pressure fit that
is applicable for this application.

We don't need any tinsile strength here, just a
secure contact to ensure the bumper guards don't
come loose. BTW, don't they glue those threaded parts on?

JM

GreenPiper
01-08-2002, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by John McCain:

What part of the law of physics addresses hemp?
Put it this way. If you were to be suspended from a great height, would you want the hook holding you nailed or screwed?
Best, John

Methinks the logic and correlation is lost on this one. The idea of a bagpipe fitting and the need to support weight do not mesh.

Mitch Man (not needing my endorsement, of course) is (gulp) on the right track here. One has to adjust for the shrinking and swelling of materials. Does threading help any? Well, I'm not convinced it helps...but hey, if you like it, go for it.
I'm not sure it should be a prerequisite for gauging quality, though.

But really, what impact does this have on a global scale? (perspective question)

I used to complain about my hair thinning until I saw a man with no head. :D {By the way, that's supposed to be a joke}

John McCain
01-08-2002, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by GreenPiper:


Methinks the logic and correlation is lost on this one. The idea of a bagpipe fitting and the need to support weight do not mesh.

Supporting weight wasn't the point. The strength of method of attachment was. A fairly simple experiment would be to attach a torque wrench to a claw hammer and measure the force needed to extract a similar size nail and screw.

One has to adjust for the shrinking and swelling of materials. Does threading help any?[/QUOTE]

Why would it not? Increasing the surface area by threading allows the use of more adhesive, raises the friction against part separation, and distributes pressure evenly.

Well, I'm not convinced it helps...but hey, if you like it, go for it. [/QUOTE]

Maybe a bit of disclaimer is in order. I play a couple of sets of Hendersons (1890s and 1950s). I don't play any modern makers drones nor am I in the market for any. I don't retail any piping products. I don't like/dislike any pipemaker over another.

I'm not sure it should be a prerequisite for gauging quality, though. [/QUOTE]

For gauging the quality of ferrule/mount attachments it sure is.

But really, what impact does this have on a global scale? (perspective question)[/QUOTE]

Dunno. You were interested enough to post, though.

I used to complain about my hair thinning until I saw a man with no head. {By the way, that's supposed to be a joke}[/QUOTE]

Cauld wind piper?

Best,
John

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 09:22 AM
One has to adjust for the shrinking and swelling of materials. Does threading help any?

"Why would it not? Increasing the surface area by threading allows the use of more adhesive, raises the friction against part separation, and distributes pressure evenly."

John, John, John, John, Johnnnnnnn!
How do I explain this to you?

If you had a 100 miles of surface area and
the material moves, you are still going to
have separation!

Think of it this way too, it doesn't matter if
the ferrule is threaded or glued, it will be
loose.

End of story!

Concider the fact also that if there is enough change in the material to cause a powerful permanent chemical bond to fail, then what chance does a simple friction fit like a thread have?

None!

This quality issue is purely a manufactured propaganda tool! Unless the party promoting this Bull is willing to backup their claim by giving a 100% money back guarantee that their accroutments will not come loose in the first 2 years, then their story doesn't hold water. I doubt very highly they would be foolish enough to do this!

JM

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

GreenPiper
01-08-2002, 09:54 AM
But really, what impact does this have on a global scale? (perspective question)

Dunno. You were interested enough to post, though
-------------------------------------------------

Got me on that one! :D

Still not convinced of any benefit...but this sure is an interesting discussion that maybe only a bona-fide mechanical engineer can solve.
We can agree to disagree on this one. :wink:

Cheers!

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 10:02 AM
Having worked in the manufacturing sector for
years as a custom machinist and made my fair share of tooling, I know a thing or two about threading!

It ain't all that, why do your think they invented welding? I did that too! :wink:

cheers

John

John McCain
01-08-2002, 10:04 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mitch Man:

If you had a 100 miles of surface area and
the material moves, you are still going to
have separation!

And, to use your example, if the material moved 100 miles, you'd have complete separation.

But, again using your example, if the non-threaded surface is 100 miles, then the threaded surface would be 400 miles, the material would have greater gravity, and the material would connect with the surface with 4 times as much area. So, it would take more miles and greater friction to get complete separation. The road would be bumpier, too. End of story!

Concider the fact also that if there is enough change in the material to cause a powerful permanent chemical bond to fail, then what chance does a simple friction fit like a thread have?

None!

Like lug nuts?

This quality issue is purely a manufactured propaganda tool!

Good design is often an effective propaganda tool!

Unless the party promoting this Bull is willing to backup their claim by giving a 100% money back guarantee that their accroutments will not come loose in the first 2 years, then their story doesn't hold water. I doubt very highly they would be foolish enough to do this!

Explain please. Which contributor of this thread (sorry for the pun) is a manufacturer capable of giving such an guarantee?

Best,
John

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by John McCain:
Explain please. Which contributor of this thread (sorry for the pun) is a manufacturer capable of giving such an guarantee?

Your answer:


At home, I have silver and ivory sets of 1912 Hendersons, 1903 MacDougalls and 1948 Sinclair pipes. I have never had a loose mount on any of them. So don't say it can't be done. It should be done.

Cheerios,
Jim McGillivray

--------------------

MCGILLIVRAY PIPING PARTNERSHIPS
~ Select Bagpipes &amp; Accessories ~
www.piping.on.ca (http://www.piping.on.ca)
piping@aci.on.ca
905-726-4003

Ian Lawther
01-08-2002, 10:45 AM
I think we have got two possible problems we are trying to find a single fix for. I agree with Jim McGillivray that manufacturers should supply a sound product, but I think what is sound in one climate is not necessarily so in another.

As someone who moved from southern England to the Washington DC area 3 years ago I have been surprised at the effects of the dry cold winters here on various instruments - and on me (skin getting so dry it cracks!). I have not had undue problems with the ferrules on my Hendersons but I have been aware of needing to rehemp more often - not because the hemp has worn smooth but because the wood has dried.

Manufacturers in the UK are not necessarily aware of the problems of a "continental climate". Indeed after I moved here I was asked by a smallpipe maker friend if I could help explain some of the problems his North American customers had which he didn't seem to get from others.

But going back to the original question I have tended to use temporary measures to fix loose ferrules due to the climate - such as plumbers tape - figuring that come the summer it can be removed as the wood swells again.

Ian Lawther

Matt Buckley
01-08-2002, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Mitch Man:

Wood is a problem that "all" bagpipe makers are having in terms of warping and splitting because they have no control over the wood quality.

Wood is not manufactured, it is grown and harvested, so any maker will have problems and
any maker that claims they don't have cracks is
just simply lieing!

Rubbish. Responsible makers who take the time and
care necessary are extremely careful both when
choosing wood and when curing wood. While there
exists no absolute guarantee, the incidence of
cracks can be kept to an absolute minimum with
proper attention and careful manufacturing.

And for what it's worth, and given the fact that the Vermont climate features great extremes in weather, my H. Moore concert A Highland pipes are now 4 years old, and my Bb Highland pipes are now 3 years old. Not a crack or loose ferrule/mount anywhere in sight.

Also for what it's worth, and understanding that
SSP and borderpipes are different in that moisture
exposure is not like that of GHB, my H. Moore
African blackwood SSP are now 14 years old, my H. Moore boxwood borderpipes are now 10 years old. Not a crack or loose ferrule/mount anywhere in sight.

Cheers. Matt

Derrick Young
01-08-2002, 11:00 AM
I would like to comment on Jim's remarks
if it's no big deal, why do so many people talk about it?

Being a newbie and having had this problem with my pipes I can comment on why it is a hot topic.

We are newbies we know no better. For me I thought my pipes were crap when this happened to me, and was almost embarrassed to bring it to the attention of my instructor for fear that he would say I had bought a crap set of pipes.

a few minutes and a quick lessons on maintenance and I was comfortable with my purchase decision again.

As for the comparison to the knobs falling off the $2500.00 audio system. well is that no comparing apples to Oranges. Is fittings loose on other wood winds common in the first few years? I do not know but that is the comparison that would be more valid IMHO.

I no way am I trying to challenge your thinking Jim, as quite frankly you know more and have achieved more in piping than most bands combined and I have n o idea if threading is better or not.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Creemore D ]

Matt Buckley
01-08-2002, 11:31 AM
As an afterthought, I also can't help but wonder
whether proper care and maintenance is part of
the issue. I'm always surprised when I hear of
folks living in the harsh New England climate who never think to keep sponges in their pipe case during the winter, check fittings regularly, etc.

Cheers. Matt

Jim McGillivray
01-08-2002, 11:42 AM
Yes, there is at least one company I'm associated with that threads on all mounts; there may be a couple more, but I'm not sure who they are. Threading is a time-consuming effort, so it results in a higher price.

It strikes me that the least the manufacturers who glue could do is to include or offer as an add-on some kind of mount repair and instruction kit like you used to get with bicycle tires. (Am I dating myself here?) As someone has said, shrinking wood is a fact of life, and not everyone can afford or wants the one or two makers who thread. It's in the best interests of the maker to ensure the buyer keeps the pipes in proper repair. Sending out pipes with no support even though you know they will lose mounts is a bit like implying that the chanter will never need tape. It's a nice idea, but it will never happen.

The truth is, such strategic marketing is not the forte of most manufacturers

Cheers,
Jim

Thom Moore
01-08-2002, 01:20 PM
I tend to agree with Matt Buckley about proper selection and curing of wood. I've been inside only 5 well-known pipe makers' shops (and 2 not so well known), and in 2 of the above 5 I saw racks of wood sorted by quality and size, separated into special enclosed or unenclosed areas with or without humidifiers, de-humidifiers, and other machinery, ostensibly present to assist in curing.

In my own recent experience (having bought and sold almost 20 sets of new and old pipes in the last 5 years, since returning to piping), it's become clear to me that the makers who appear to take better care with thier wood, tend to produce a more stable product, threads or no threads.

However, I also agree with Matt's later post about maintenance practices. I still can't believe the number of pipers out there who seem to think that an eternally sopping-wet pipe is a good thing. How sad and stupid.

Cheers, Thom

GreenPiper
01-08-2002, 01:37 PM
So, what do ya'll think about brass lining the drones? :D

&lt;as he quickly runs for cover&gt;

Scott Russell
01-08-2002, 02:30 PM
I don't want to turn this into a this set is better than that set, but having seen a set of Kron pipes at Jim's house I can honestly say they are well made.


From a business point of view, I see no problem with focusing on something that other manufacturers do not do. That is just smart marketing, every industry does it, and there is nothing wrong with that. It may force other manufacturers to take a hard look at their own practices to ensure they are doing all they can to put out the best product they possibly can.

Now from a personal point of view. I still see it as not a big problem to have a ferrule come lose. I have owned a lot of vintage pipes (Henderson, Lawrie, MacDougall, Starck)and they all had a ferrule come loose every now and then. It was mostly in the winter. It was not until the past couple of years when I began to pay attention to the humidity level that I have not had a problem. It was not concern for my pipe that made me look more closely at humidity either. It was concern for a very expensive piano, it's soundboard, and tuning duration.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Scott Russell ]

Jim McGillivray
01-08-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by GreenPiper:
So, what do ya'll think about brass lining the drones? :D

&lt;as he quickly runs for cover&gt;

A few of the smallpipe makers line tuning slides with brass and it's a wonderful thing. It does nothing for the tone as far as I can tell, but it makes for a beautifully smooth, almost lubricated tuning slide. It also acts to circumvent some of the slight fluctuations of wood that can result in uneven tuning slides. Of course, the MacDougalls did this a century ago though I'm not sure why exactly.

I have a set of 1903 brass-lined MacDougalls at home, and frankly the tuning slides are a bit uneven, so even the brass linings don't solve that problem completely.

Jim

Thom Moore
01-08-2002, 03:46 PM
Brass lining: The set of "MacDougall" reproduction drones I have from Michael Mac Harg of Vermont are lined with brass, and this does make tuning extremely nice. In fact, I put the instrument down for about 3 months with no playing at all, and when I picked it up again, I didn't have to add any hemp whatsoever.

Of course, Michael is an utterly fanatical craftsperson, and it's obvious that he takes enormous care that his wood (in this case, Brazilian kingwood) is very well seasoned. In fact, I didn't have to add hemp to any of the tenons, brass sleeves or not.

Sound-wise, I think the brass does help somewhat in focusing and brightening the sound. I've been told that these drones "project" really well.

Also, I would've expected problems with increased condensation on the walls of the brass sleeves, but I haven't had this happen, even in quite cool and wet weather (no more than bare wood).

-Thom

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Jim McGillivray:
As someone has said, shrinking wood is a fact of life, and not everyone can afford or wants the one or two makers who thread.

Jim, this is where the point of contention is!!!!

Threading does not in anyway ensure the ferrule
will lose it's bond to the wood if the material
changes.

Are you claiming that the CE Kron company has
absolutely no loose ferrules in it's very short history of pipe making?

JM

Chris Hamilton
01-08-2002, 04:57 PM
Mitch said to Jim McG:

&gt;Are you claiming that the CE Kron company has
&gt;absolutely no loose ferrules in it's very short
&gt;history of pipe making?

And I say,

Nary a one with any set I've sold or owned. Threading works - why do it if it doesn't?

MacLellan pipes have the projecting mounts threaded on, by the way, but not the metal ferrules (the forthcoming imitation ivory ferrules will be threaded though).

As for (was it Ian Lawther's) the earlier comment about UK makers not always understanding the North American climatic effects, I'd second that. Anyone who comes from there to Grandfather Mountain, for instance, high up in elevation in a hot summer, is pretty stunned by the sudden dramatic chanter pitch elevation and hemp loosening that can occur.

As I always say to my UK friends, "See that glowing orb up there in the sky, we call that The Sun." :p Anyone who's been to The Worlds knows whereof I speak!

Chris

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Chris Hamilton:
Nary a one with any set I've sold or owned. Threading works - why do it if it doesn't?


That's good that you said that Chris, because
I've had no problems with my 12 year old set of
"Glue-on" pipes too, and I'm sure thier are
many others who have not experienced loose ferrules either! I've played a vintage set of
Glenns with loose ferrules too.

Again, threading is "OLD Technology" that does not
Guarantee a secure mount! If you want to make this claim, then prove it and back it up with
a money back Guarantee, otherwise please cease
to make these unfounded statements.

JM
One of many happy "Glue-on" customers!

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 05:31 PM
BTW!

This is not a slag against the overseas makers,
I know for a fact that many of the pipes are having problems due to climate changes.

JM

Jim McGillivray
01-08-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Mitch Man:


That's good that you said that Chris, because
I've had no problems with my 12 year old set of
"Glue-on" pipes too, and I'm sure thier are
many others who have not experienced loose ferrules either! I've played a vintage set of
Glenns with loose ferrules too.

Again, threading is "OLD Technology" that does not
Guarantee a secure mount! If you want to make this claim, then prove it and back it up with
a money back Guarantee, otherwise please cease
to make these unfounded statements.

JM
One of many happy "Glue-on" customers!


Holy kerschmokers, let's not carried away here! First of all, my thread-on pipes carry a two-year guarantee; if a mount falls off we'll take them back. I bet Chris will too. I mean, why would I make such claims if I wasn't going to back them up? I actually ask my customers about mounts and have had no fall-off reports yet for that particular maker. So as far as I can tell, it works 100%.

I don't really think this is a my-pipes-are-as-good-as-your-pipes-so-shut-yer-face arm rassle, Mr. "JM MitchMan", whoever you might be. We've had enquiries on the forum about mounts falling off. Some people said this can't be prevented. I said yes it can but it requires an extra level of manufacturing and costs more. I never said glue doesn't work, I just said lots of glued mounts do fall off. I said I don't feel good about selling pipes when I know that in as little as a few months the mounts might fall off. Then I suggested it would be nice if the makers (including one that I carry) provided (even at extra cost) a little mount repair kit that would do away with this oft-repeated thread. I still think this would be a nice touch.

Anyway, I'll sign off from this thread now I think. Cheerios, all

JM
(Jim McGillivray)

Mitch Man
01-08-2002, 07:16 PM
We've had enquiries on the forum about mounts falling off. Some people said this can't be prevented.
Anyway, I'll sign off from this thread now I think. Cheerios, all

JM
(Jim McGillivray)[/QB]

Again this is just a game of numbers and while thousands of Glue-on pipes are sold each year,
I don't see thousands of posts on the subject.

One good thing has come from this thread, perhaps
vendors should make their customers aware of potential problems with the pipes while the wood is settling. It's always a good policy to be honest up front, but I don't see it being a problem as "ALL" woodwind instruments have this same trait!

I know "all" Pipe Makers want to make their customers happy and there is a limited 2 year guarantee on the wood if it warps or cracks
under normal conditions.

Hopefully this is my last post on this subject and perhaps it can be referred to an FAQ section
to address this problem.

Cheers

JM

BTW, playing in the St' Pat's parade does not count as normal conditions!

Spunky
01-08-2002, 07:48 PM
To Jim:

"IT'S" been annoying for a lot of people.