Uniforms?????

[Eastern Drummer]

I recently came back from Loon Mountain, where I saw more drum majors than I have ever seen in one place. Although I am not a drum major, I can appreciate one that knows what he/she is doing. But I need to ask, What is with all the "dress up" I saw a drum major lead a massed band wave in fatigues. British fatigues at that. I'm not certain but I believe he was not in the British army. Also do all these drum majors lead bands? And if so where was their band uniform. Again I appreciate what a drum major does, but I don't understand all the role-playing. Please fill me in. :shrug:

[Phil Lenihan]

Well I do remember maybe in the 2005 or 6 Edinburgh Tattoos the D/M for the Black Watch was in fatigues as was the full band. They had just returned from Iraq. Maybe the D/M you observed was a guest from the UK. I bet you will find some kind of a story behind this.

Cheers! PHIL

[Eastern Drummer]

Maybe. I wish I knew the story.

[oldsoldier]

If its the same one I am thinking of, I thought they may have been Marine dress? I wasnt sure...now that I think about it though, he did render a British salute...hm...

[Eastern Drummer]

If he was actually British military. Then he has earned the right to wear the uniform. (I don’t think he was) I do believe that to compete in the worlds as a drum major, you need to be affiliated with a pipe band. Is that right? I just see lots of drum majors getting a little carried way with these “costumes” What’s wrong with being a competent drum major in a kilt and band uniform? I realize that for many it is your hobby and that’s cool. But when did games and competitions become a venue for re-enactors?

[Spyderpyper]

Looking at it in a different way - as you are well aware, drum majoring is a Scottish Art that requires practice in marching, flourishing and otherwise leading a band as well as perfect dress and deportment. Just as you do not have to be a band member to enter solos in piping or drumming, you don't need to have a band to enter the DM contest. (In Scotland only juniors do not need to be registered with a band.) If they are competing and their dress is outlandish, they shouldl become more aware of what is appropriate when they don't hear their name announced for prizes.

[Eastern Drummer]

I guess you could call this stirring the pot, because I want to get drum major’s views on this. I know I have spoken to several open level drum majors and they feel the same way.

On more than one occasion this year I have seen outlandish dress at American games. In Massachusetts one drum major had shorts on, at loon one with fatigues. It seems that this borders on the line of foolish. Hence my "dress up" and "costumes" comments. These outfits seem more appropriate for a re-enactment show rather than a serious open drum major contest. Although if these drum majors were actually in the military and this was there uniform great, but that is not the case in the US. The contests and games have become costume contests. My opinion anyway.

[Rob K.]

I'm a drum major adjudicator in the SUSPBA and in my opinion I must agree with you, Eastern. The RSPBA dress code for Drum Major Competition only allows for what we call "Number 1's" or full highland dress, and "Number 2's" or civilian dress. If the young man was an active military drum major then I would make an exception, otherwise I would feel bound by regulation to score his uniform in accordance with the RSPBA code.

[Rob K.]

Also, the RSPBA (and the SUSPBA for that matter) does not require a drum major to be affiliated with a band. If you look at the drum major competitor list on the RSPBA website, you'll see competitors with "unattached" as their affiliated band. This indicates that they are not partnered with a band.

[Eastern Drummer]

I see thanks.
I guess what I was doing was questioning the dress more than anything. I realize that it is very difficult and takes much practice. And I applaud all you dummies.
It’s the drum majors in military khaki uniforms and fatigues (that are pretending) that I wonder about.
It reminds me of a civilian I ran into at a ceilidh this year. He admitted he was wearing a ww II tunic with service ribbons. I’m sorry if anyone disagrees, but if they’re not your ribbons you have no right to wear them. So a drum major in highland dress looks great. A drum major in someone else’s military uniform should be called on it.

[W. F. Morrison]

I'm an unafilliated drum major, senior drum major on parade at one major and two minor games in the South East. I 've been collecting bits and pieces of full highland regalia as my budget allows, trying also to keep up with an expanding middle age spread. It's no fun wearing so much wool and feathers in 90+ heat and 100% humidity. I went for trews after I came back from a snowy St Patricks Day parade and it took two hours after a two hour drive for my knees to thaw. I'm not into a particular regimental dress, just want to turn out sharp! And comfortable. I don't compete on the games' DM circuit. But, I know a couple of other drummies who turn out in differing military kit. One is a WWII era Black Watch reinactor who is also a fine DM. Another is a former US Marineentitled to wear his ribbons, and came up with his own solid color kilt in Marine Dress Blue, he too, is a fine DM.

So, seeing that preserving Scottish Style DM is a desireable thing, tolerate the fringe group, and actively encourage others who want to see the tradition continue.

Yours aye,
Warren Morrison DM
Loch Norman Highland Games

[GdsDepot]

To Eastern Drummer and All!
in answer to your question about uniforms seen at Loon Mtn. On Sunday at closing ceremonies you did in fact see a Drum Major kitted out in current fatigue dress for the Scots Guards. At opening ceremonies on Saturday you would have seen the same Drum Major in current Scots Guards #2 service dress.
However ,all Competition was done in approved EUSPBA dress and judged accordingly.
There is indeed a movement among some Drum Majors in the northeast to honor British regiments and their veterans by adhering to strict regimental drill, dress, even command voice.In this way we hope to preserve as much regimental tradition and aspect as possible especially when it concerns Regiments which have been dissolved or amalgamated.It should be noted that many of these Drum Majors do compete and have excellent marks for drill , marching and deportment.

This has been encouraged by veterans from several regiments who really appreciate the effort. This was also a conscious effort to honor veterans on parade sunday , and add poignancy to the Chieftan of the Games wish to "Honor all Scots who had given their lives to make a better world" by playing the Last Post.
There were no less than 4 regiments represented by their Veterans that day and 4 from the 2d Bn Scots Guards alone.
All highly approve of the Drum Major in question and do take it as a sign of respect.
So far , each Drum Major who has taken this direction have had their kit and representation approved by the regiment they seek to portray. In a way , Drum Majors are also part of the education and pageantry aspect of the highland games and this is one of the things we bring to the massed bands.

In the same light, we do not approve of Drum Majors or Re-enactors wearing decorations they are not entitled to foreign or domestic, or thrown together uniforms that are worn just because they look good. We answer a lot of questions at events and always welcome inquiries from folks, so if you see a Drum Major and are curious as to "whats up?"
Please dont hesitate to ask , we are more than happy to help!
Cheers all

[Robin]

In recent years I've noticed an increasing number of mixed styles of dress with a few drummies. That is to say a confusing blend of parts of uniforms -- both civilian and military -that seem to lack continuity, probably because no one told them 'What Not to Wear.'

Some of these uniforms seem to be a collection of 'whatever-you- can-find-that-sort-of-works' parts that make them appear to be more costumes that authentic uniform.

Think of a guy who never served in the military who decides to go shopping at the Army-Navy Surplus store and assembles his uniform, ribbons, shoes, spats etc. from the whatever fits or is on sale, regardless of the appropriateness of the total look. Then watch him march in a Veteran's Day parade.

It sort of looks military to the casual observer, but I would think would offend any veteran who did wear the uniform and recognized the mish-mash of parts, ribbons, etc. I cringe for them, and I never served in the military.

How do judges assess the uniforms worn in D/M competitions, and is there a source for DM advice I could delicately suggest to a
few drummies who might benefit from a 'makeover?'

[Eastern Drummer]

"There is indeed a movement among some Drum Majors in the northeast to honor British regiments and their veterans by adhering to strict regimental drill, dress, even command voice."

You say there is a movement? Since when is the massed bands a forum for this. You call it "preserving" and "honoring". I still have a hard time agreeing with you gdsdepot. I understand and agree that the preservation of drum majoring is important. i.e. Mace work drill and commands. However wearing these military uniforms when you are not, or were not in the military is wrong. Although there were some older veterans that took this as a sign of respect. I feel drum majors should stick with highland dress or Kit and stay away from the re-enacting. Preserve the skills of a drum major and only put the uniform on if you truly earned it. Would you dare wear these uniforms at Maxville or in Scotland in massed bands? Highly doubtful. But to each his own. Thanks for the clarification.

[SGDrummie]

Quote..."You say there is a movement? Since when is the massed bands a forum for this. You call it "preserving" and "honoring". I still have a hard time agreeing with you gdsdepot. I understand and agree that the preservation of drum majoring is important. i.e. Mace work drill and commands. However wearing these military uniforms when you are not, or were not in the military is wrong."
To Eastern Drummer-
There is an excellent resource you could check out in the Regimental Drum Major Association (www.drummajor.net (http://www.drummajor.net)) and it may help to explain to you how so many drum majors here in the States, and abroad, admire and adhere to regimental traditions when choosing their uniforms.
There IS a movement here in the US to get drum majors on the same page as far as regimental dress. Reenactor or not, it is vital to keep these traditions and modes of dress alive, as the British Army cannot, due to financial constraints.
As for your concerns about the modes of dress for competition, whether EUSPBA, WUSPBA, SUSPBA or RSPBA, all drum majors pass muster at competition with appropriate dress. As a competitor, I can assure you that there is a reason that you will see more trews than kilt in competition... the more you wear, the more a judge can find wrong. This is the case here in the US as well as in Scotland at the Worlds. If you show up for comp in a full dress uniform, not only will it hamper you in flourishing, but every single stitch and angle will be judged.
The military uniforms you will see on parade, unless worn by those ignorant of the details, are exact, and take much effort and funding, in "getting it right". Those efforts are sincerely appreciated by former and serving soldiers from the UK.
Your argument recently reared it's ugly head a few years ago at the Tartan Dinner at the NHHG. It was made by a Canadian Army Scottish (Militia) band who took offense at military uniforms being worn at the dinner. I correctly pointed out to the Pipe Major's son, that if their view was adhered to, there would not be any reenactment societies. No 78th Highlanders at the Citadel in Halifax, NS. Nobody to educate the public at Fort Henry. In fact, if it were not for the many reenactment units, associations and societies around the globe, military history (which is a vital to understanding how our world is the way it is) would be relegated to the dry pages of history books. Certainly not as engaging to the general public as talking to a Living History representative.
The best part of that exchange actually came two days later, when a former serving member of a Highland regiment, in response to their indignation, said, "Honestly, I can't see how ANY of you Canadians can claim the title of "Highlanders"! Brilliant and sublime at the same time.
Your concern about the massed bands are correct, although taken out of context for the Sunday event at Loon Mountain. The actual "Closing" ceremonies are done on Saturday evening. What goes on Sunday are a mish-mash of whaterever pipe bands happen to still be at the games and are very informal. The drum major in your querie is a very good frind of mine, and I can asure you that the DPM (combat) uniform would NOT have been worn on Saturday. GdsDepot was spot on in his assement, and in the audience that day (and for the whole weekend) were two former Drum Majors from the 2nd Bn. Scots Guards (all veterans of the Falklands campaign) and the only Pipe Major to have been pipie for the 1st and 2nd battalions of the Scots Guards as well as being former piper for the Royal Family. These folks have already given their stamp of approval for what we do, BECAUSE it keeps the traditions alive. If you wish to question their veracity, that's your bag.
In closing, I'd like to point out a major difference in attitude between UK forces and those from the US and Canada. In the UK, the veterans are so much more appreciative of reenactors efforts to be accurate, and they truly see it as the utmost form of flattery for their former regiments. In the Sates and Canada, vets are much more anal about folks wearing their uniforms, regardless of the reasons.
We have a small Highland Games in Scotland, CT. on Sunday the 12th of October... if you are in the area, please stop by and we could consider this debate over a few pints. It would be very enjoyable, besides helping to educate, but as there will be quite a few RDMA members there, you could get other views as well.
Sincerely,
Tom Belyea, DM

[Eastern Drummer]

I don't mean to make light of your hobby. I understand that some of you put a lot of time and money into it. However, my main argument/question is...... is leading the massed bands appropriate venue for re-enacting? It might be different if there was a whole band of re-enactors. Then maybe. You say, " I can assure you that there is a reason that you will see more trews than kilt in competition..." I have to disagree. I have seen drum major competitions all over North America. And yes I have seen a few DM's wearing trews. I believe all will agree that MOST Drum majors wear a kilt. Why is it that that outside the small bubble of New England his trend/movement has not caught on? Tom I apologize I don't mean to come across so abrasive. I do respect the skills of a well-trained DM. Thanks for the input.

[SGDrummie]

In response to your question, the massed bands are not being used as a venue for reenacting. Not all drum majors who wear full dress or military uniform are reenactors. While some may be, we are really just out there doing what drum majors do and that is leading the massed bands.

Another point to consider is what John Q. Public expects at the games, and quite frankly, they want to see full dress. I can remember when I started out in my first pipe band, there were far more pipe bands who wore full dress. Unfortunately, they are few and far between now as most bands have taken the view that personal comfort supercedes any notion of proper showmanship. That's a sad commentary, but there it is. The average person at a parade or Highland games is usually not cognizant of how good a band sounds, but they do notice when a band is properly turned out and in smart kit. Nothing gets a crowd going better than a band with feather bonnets and full plaids flying in the wind, regardless of how they sound.

I believe I mis-stated when I said that most competition drummies wear trews. But there is a good percentage who are going over to trews for competition and that seems to have started in Scotland, not really here in New England. The reasons are varied, but mostly for the simplicity factor when being judged on dress. Less pleats to worry about being wrinkled, etc.

Again, as far as your concerns that the massed bands are becoming a venue for reenactors, that's really not the case. What you have are drum majors who are not only dedicated to their craft, but who take pride in their kit and the fact that in some small way we are able to pay homage to those regiments of the British Army while we are on parade.
Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[Piping Bear]

Not all drum majors who wear full dress or military uniform are reenactors. While some may be, we are really just out there doing what drum majors do and that is leading the massed bands.

Thanks , because I was getting lost on the renactors portion. It was usually the pipers getting slagged in WWI out front sans a Drummie.

Nothing gets a crowd going better than a band with feather bonnets and full plaids flying in the wind, regardless of how they sound.

Repsectfully, having a granny next to me in Glasgow boo some Black Watch piping students who were all spit and polish but couldn't even attack the tunes, tuning was off, not playing rogether and the performance was awful or offal as the case may be. She finally yelled out " Away an boil yer heids! learn ta music!" The rest of the crowd was in agreement with Granny.
Don't pray for the ignorance of the crowd.

I hear the same in New York,Edinburgh and Atlanta. Looking good is PART of the equation, the other major part is the sound and playing.

We could try marching past in just fancy dress but I notice the crowds cry for music not uniforms.

Aefauldlie.
Evan Kohler-Camp PM

[Rob MacDonald]

D/M for the Black Watch was in fatigues as was the full band....

The 'word' in the 'Old Comrades' net is that, as since amalgamation into the RRS the 'Watch now only wear the Red Hackle with field uniform they wear that order of dress on every possible occasion. I'm told they seldom wear the kilted orders of dress.

[nearlydoc]

Who is the person in the band, the tourist comes up to and says "Can we have photo taken with you" (Not the third row piper).

This is because they are the stand out of the band.

DM'ing is as much about showmanship and style as the Bass Drum is about the tempo of the band.

As for dress -- The showier the better (but keeping it sane) --The reality as far as I see --- So you wear mixed dress (civilian/military) together!!!!! It is not about tradition or history it's about looking good and as long as the Band Executive are happy for the DM to wear Hula Skirts and Pink Spats there is no Uniform Police who will arrest you and send you to prison or execute the DM.

As for tradition it is only as traditional as the last Annual General Meeting or if a Military Organisation the last CO or Defence Department Director.

Medals should only be worn if they are yours. I believe civil charges can be made against persons wearing medals not entitled to wear them. I further believe this Law is enacted in most countries in the world.

[Andrew Cheung]

As for dress -- The showier the better (but keeping it sane) --The reality as far as I see --- So you wear mixed dress (civilian/military) together!!!!! It is not about tradition or history it's about looking good and as long as the Band Executive are happy for the DM to wear Hula Skirts and Pink Spats there is no Uniform Police who will arrest you and send you to prison or execute the DM.
That is absolutely ignorant to say. This activity IS about tradition and history, not just about looking good. If the "tourists" want to see the DM in a hula skirt, the highland games probably is not the best place for that to happen. There is supposed to be a good amount of culture and respect at these games, and I can't imagine anything more disrespectful than to mix and match uniform parts as one pleases just to "look good."

[ZAG]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil Lenihan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">D/M for the Black Watch was in fatigues as was the full band....

The 'word' in the 'Old Comrades' net is that, as since amalgamation into the RRS the 'Watch now only wear the Red Hackle with field uniform they wear that order of dress on every possible occasion. I'm told they seldom wear the kilted orders of dress. </div></div>

The Black Watch wore the "Desert Combats" at the tattoo (2004 I think) as they had not long returned from operations in Iraq, they are indeed now a Battalion in the Royal Regiment of Scotland. As part of this move, all the former Scottish regiments wear a common uniform, only distinguished in "working dress" by a coloured hackle, red in the case of the 3rd Battalion, the Black Watch. Normally the common "working dress" of the British Army is DPM, obviously desert coloured for current operational postings!

The pipes and drums of the new regiment wear their "old" uniforms of their original regiments.

Kilted working dress was normally only worn by senior ranks and the pipes and drums when in barracks, probably not so much now, although I don't know and I suppose it would be up to the induvidual battalions.

[Rob MacDonald]

Kilted working dress was normally only worn by senior ranks and the pipes and drums when in barracks, probably not so much now, although I don't know and I suppose it would be up to the induvidual battalions.

Bummer. I remember only putting on the field uniform when we where engaged in activities that required getting dirty - which was frequent enough - and the rest of the time we wore the kilt.

All else being equal, if you dress a soldier (or anyone else for that matter) in a manner that shows pride in his appearance, you get a better soldier.

[TheHaggisMaster]

All I want to know is why Drum Majors feel it necessary to appear in full dress regardless of what the band is wearing? An example: The band is wearing shirt and tie, no jacket in the summer and Lovat hose with a leather sporran and a glengarry. The Drum Major is wearing full dress cerimonial with a feather bonnet. What ever happened to the definition of the word 'uniform'?

[SithDrumMajor]

Pretty as a peacock ... Although the band may be a bunch of wrens or something. I think that's basically the case.

I whole-heartedly agree with you. The uniform of the day should be observed by the Drum Major. It is the uniform of the day, and what's wrong with having some disgression. Wear the no.1 somewhere else, and not in the blazing sun in 90 degree weather. We don't want to carry you off the field.

[Eastern Drummer]

I whole-heartedly agree with you. The uniform of the day should be observed by the Drum Major.

I believe when I started this thread that was my argument. However here in the East we have many drum majors who are not connected to a band. They believe in preserving something and wear what ever they feel. So in a massed band setting you will have any number of bands with a few random drum majors using that venue to "play dress up", "look pretty", whatever you want to call it. Not saying it's right or wrong, just looks strange when you have bands in kilts, ties, vests, jackets, etc... and a few drum majors in fatigues, shorts, british military uniforms, etc...

[SithDrumMajor]

Yes, we have a lot of Drum Majors that maintain that they are preserving history. I sympathize and commend them for their efforts to honour their heritage and those that have fought and died for crown and country. This living history is great and it may open some child's eyes to the Crimean War or the rise of the highland regiments, but when camo fatigues and (more generically) the military uniforms of yesteryear --that do not involve the musical genre as it is today-- find themselves into the world of a civilian massed bands. Reenacting is great, for the little I have done I have certainly enjoyed it. (more on massed bands see below)

The interesting fact is that in the EUSPBA rules, there's really no strict guidline other than the mix/match uniform rule.

EUSPBA Drum Major Uniform Rules
"Inspection (relative merit of 30%): The character of the uniform shall be either civilian or military. There will be no "mix and match" uniforms. Exception: If the uniform is consistent with that of the Drum Major's band, it will be considered acceptable and marked accordingly."

There really should be a shift to bring the EUSPBA in line with the RSPBA and the PPBSO in terms of competition, where each competitor should be required to wear their band uniform. Those "bandless" Drum Majors should be required to wear civilian dress.

Basically it's all about the playing field. Those unfamiliar with no.1s probably shouldn't wear them in contests nor should the judges (who may not know their history of regimental dress from various periods and regiments) try to judge something they don't know about.

As a sidenote ... I love wearing my personal kilt and dress for contests as it makes me stand out a little bit more??, but I'd gladly wear it for personal piping gigs only, if changes were made.

To get to the meat of the issue ... Unfortunately in massed bands there is a potential for Drum Majors to consider the event a free for all for uniform styles. If a realignment is possible to bring us closer to the RSPBA, and adopted, the Senior Drum Major of the Massed Bands may be able to discuss the issue with the Games Committees or Chief Stewards and make a change to only allow civilian uniform on the field. Although I have long about this, I really don't think changes can be made to massed bands as the EUBPBA doesn't have the pull to designate dress in massed bands as EUSPBA is there to judge and organize the judging.

Is all this possible? Are we able to make a change? I would love to see the EUSPBA really step forward and attempt to raise the status of the Drum Major to a higher level. It's up to the Drum Majors themselves to act with courtesy and respect towards the bands that serve you in a massed bands, for if it wasn't for them ... You'd be out of a job.

This goes out to the Drum Majors ... If you remember Sunday Massed Bands at Loon this year, what happened in the second wave was an abomination. There was no reason to bring those bands --most of which despise massed bands and really just want to go home -- inside that lodge. It's activity like that which lessens our status in the eyes of the musicians which outnumber us in EUSPBA at least 40:1.

Just a few thoughts ...

[Eastern Drummer]

Well said!!!!!!!!!

[SGDrummie]

Kudos, Andrew, your post was spot on! We are working on getting as many Drum Majors as we can on the same page, but there is still hard work yet to be done, especially here in the United States. I suppose there will always be an element who, through ignorance or vanity, will continue to mix ~n~ match uniforms, i.e. Feather bonnets with gauntlets and short sleeved shirts or doublets with popcorn hose and ghillie brogues. All we can hope and strive to do is educate, especially through the Regimental Drum Major Association’s informative website (www.drummajor.net (http://www.drummajor.net)), and give gentle prodding in the right direction. Ultimately though, Drum Majors who are intent on doing their “own thing”, after an attempt to educate, must be left to their own devices and buffoonery.

From what originally started out as a posting from a seemingly disgruntled (band member?) person regarding Drum Majors dress at massed bands appears to be veering dangerously close to an all out attack on DMs who choose to either represent the Scottish Regiments or who pattern their uniforms on the military, and their participation in massed band events. In my mind, these folks will not be happy unless everyone conforms to the cookie-cutter template in vogue with many pipe bands over the last decade or so, meaning kilt, Argyll jacket, shirt and tie. How boring would that be with 40+ pipe bands on parade? How would a casual observer, perhaps not familiar with tartans, be able to tell bands apart? Usually can’t read the bass drums from the bleachers, so it’s nice to have bands out there with variance in their uniforms. My personal opinion.

As for DMs wearing only their band uniforms, I think many do. Having said that, I have had contact with many bands over the years that simply couldn’t afford to outfit their entire band with military full dress so they opted to have their Drum Major do it because they want some “wow factor” out front. Nothing wrong with that at all. He IS, after all, the frontman and the face of the band. The last band that I was officially affiliated with, though military in style, could not afford to make that full dress commitment but they asked me to do it for special events, which I was happy to do for them. Otherwise, I wore their standard band uniform.

As for SithDrumMajor’s commentary on the possibility of getting the EUSPBA (insert your own pipe band association acronym here) involved in mandating what may or may not be worn at the various massed band events- well, to be perfectly blunt, it’s an asinine supposition and one, thankfully, that will never occur. For starters, sir, the EUSPBA has no jurisdiction to enable it to dictate anything at massed bands. That is up to the individual games committees. There are two very important reasons that the games committees will not allow that sort of silliness. First, whether you agree or like it or not, the Drum Majors, freelance or affiliated, are an essential tool for the smooth execution of the massed bands, and it’s highly unlikely that any games committee would place the sort of restrictions you propose on the Drum Major’s personal choice of uniform that some may find insulting or offensive. Speaking for myself, I do not (at present) own an Argyll jacket, vest or any reasonable form of civilian dress, and I am not about to go out and specifically purchase civilian uniform so that I can volunteer (yes, that’s right, we don’t get paid to do this) my time to lead the massed bands. I think there may well be a fair amount of DMs who would not attend a given event if they were restricted to a particular form of dress for the massed bands. That could have a negative overall effect on the games committees. Taking Loon Mountain for example, after checking last year’s band list (I don’t remember exactly how many bands we had this past September) there were 30 bands listed. Out of that number, there were 20 who were listed as having a Drum Major, but out of those there were perhaps 5 or 6 who have the skills needed to coordinate and lead a massed band wave. Some of those few do not even participate in the massed bands, so the bulk of the responsibility is placed on the experienced freelance DMs who are there. Alienate that segment of competitors and the games would not have an easy go at running a smooth massed bands event. Not meaning to sound hoighty-toighty, but thems the facts.

The second reason you’d not likely see full military dress stifled at the games is that John Q. Public expects to see it at the games and were it to disappear, I’m sure that the games committees would hear about it. Loudly. This is something that the games cannot ignore as it’s the paying public who keep the events going. If the games don’t survive, where are you going to compete? There are some pretty far reaching consequences to be considered here. There are too many instances for me to recall where someone has asked to have their picture taken with me and afterwards have commented that the Drum Majors are the best part of the panalopy for them and have pleaded for us to keep up the good work. This relationship with the crowd is called SHOWMANSHIP. It is expected; it is delivered, and appreciated. It is very much here to stay.

Not to toot my own horn here, but I started in my first pipe band, as a piper, in 1975 and I have been marching, with one band or another, ever since. I started in the Drum Majors field in 1985. I’ve seen many pipe bands come and go in that time, and I’ve had plenty of discussions over the years with folks who bemoan the loss of the great regional pipe bands who used to wear military full dress. They truly dislike the aforementioned cookie cutter trend in pipe band uniforms and I wholeheartedly agree. I guess you could say that I am “old school”, and I’d have to say you are correct. I’d also have to say that, for my part, I have a deep appreciation for the old traditions (seems like sheepskin pipebags are making a comeback) and I will continue to do my best to keep these dress traditions alive and in the public’s view.

Oh, and by the way, SithDrumMajor, you are either misinformed or just like to talk about things of which you know nothing about. The massed bands wave at Loon Mountain marching into the Governor Adams Lodge is a long-standing tradition at the New Hampshire Highland Games. It is usually done after the closing ceremonies on Saturday, but that didn’t happen this past year as the games changed the way we marched off the field and directed us in the other direction. There were many complaints received from folks who waited in the lodge for us to march in, so it was decided that we would lead the wave in after Sunday’s closing. This was all prearranged, with Alasdair Fraser waiting upstairs to play a lovely tune with the New Hampshire School of Scottish Arts PB. The bands involved on Sunday were there of their own accord and willingly took part in this tradition. So before you go around telling people what an “abomination” the closing ceremonies were on that Sunday at the NHHG…get your bloody facts straight.

Respectfully,
Tom Belyea, DM

[JRB]

I note the continued theme of dressing in Military uniform, here in the UK the following Act of Parliament is still on the Statute Books, don't know the situation in The United States!

Uniforms Act 1894
1.This Act may be cited for all purposes as the Uniforms Act 1894.

2. Military uniforms not to be worn without authority.
— (1) It shall not be lawful for any person not serving in Her Majesty’s Military Forces to wear without Her Majesty’s permission the uniform of any of those forces, or any dress having the appearance or bearing any of the regimental or other distinctive marks of any such uniform: Provided that this enactment shall not prevent any persons from wearing any uniform or dress in the course of a stage play performed in a place duly licensed or authorised for the public performance of stage plays, or in the course of a music hall or circus performance, or in the course of any bona fide military representation.
(2) If any person contravenes this section he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [level 3 on the standard scale].

Regards,
JRB

[SmokeEater]

I note the continued theme of dressing in Military uniform, here in the UK the following Act of Parliament is still on the Statute Books, don't know the situation in The United States!

Uniforms Act 1894
1.This Act may be cited for all purposes as the Uniforms Act 1894.

2. Military uniforms not to be worn without authority.
— (1) It shall not be lawful for any person not serving in Her Majesty’s Military Forces to wear without Her Majesty’s permission the uniform of any of those forces, or any dress having the appearance or bearing any of the regimental or other distinctive marks of any such uniform: Provided that this enactment shall not prevent any persons from wearing any uniform or dress in the course of a stage play performed in a place duly licensed or authorised for the public performance of stage plays, or in the course of a music hall or circus performance, or in the course of any bona fide military representation.
(2) If any person contravenes this section he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [level 3 on the standard scale].

Regards,
JRB I would tend to think a Highland Games or DM competition would fall under the perfomance exemption.

[JRB]

I can't recall ever being involved in a Highland Games or DM's Competition in any venue licensed for stage plays(Theatre), nor in a Music Hall. I can't see the definition of a bona fide military representation applying to such Games or Competitions.

The Circus Performance, well that's arguable I suppose. :)


JRB

[Eastern Drummer]

"The second reason you’d not likely see full military dress stifled at the games is that John Q. Public expects to see it at the games and were it to disappear, I’m sure that the games committees would hear about it. Loudly."

Give me a break you are living in a fantasy world if you think John Q. Public cares if they don't see military dress. They watch the Massed Bands. For the Music!! Mr. Public is amazed at all the pipes and drums playing together. It's not called the Massed Drum Majors!! I believe DM's serve a purpose. However don't you ever think that drum majors have that kind of effect on the publics view of the games. Yea DM's add to the whole experience, but your not getting complaints around DM's.

Secondly regarding the Loon Mtn. march off. The bands did not know they were going to the lodge. When they saw where they were going, many of them bailed out.

[SmokeEater]

I can't recall ever being involved in a Highland Games or DM's Competition in any venue licensed for stage plays(Theatre), nor in a Music Hall. I can't see the definition of a bona fide military representation applying to such Games or Competitions.

The Circus Performance, well that's arguable I suppose. :)


JRB OK, many of the MOP's tend to be clowns, :smirk: but I think the overall performance aspect should cover it. If the uniforms are worn with the respect they deserve, (and the wearer is quick to point out that he/she is not a British service member) I think the uniforms are acceptable if well done.

[SGDrummie]

I am assuming that this act was signed in Parliment in the year 1894, which would make it somewhat archaic, and certainly doesn't explain why, then, that military reenacting is far more popular in the UK than it is here in the States. Although some reenactments might also be considered a "circus act" rolffao, there doesn't seem to be a big issue with it that I've heard of. Especially since the MoD seems to have no problem at all with disbursing regimental uniform parts to the various Army/Navy dealers over there.

Anyhoo, it seems like splitting hairs here, as you are talking about a law on the books in the UK, and we are ultimately talking about the uniforms worn here in the United States. I believe we may have some regulations/laws on the books here regarding the wearing of official US military uniforms, but that doesn't apply to most of the Drum Majors here. Those that do incorporate parts of US uniform are usually veterans, so I would certainly not question their choice of perhaps wearing a cutaway version of their Army Class A jacket. My own humble opinion, of course.
Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[FargoCurt]

FYI US law

Federal laws concerning the wear of the United States Military uniforms by people not on active duty are published in the United States Code (USC).

Specifically, 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Sections 771 and 772.



Section 771 states:

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear -

(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or

(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps

Section 772 lists some exceptions:

(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.

(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.

(c) A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.

(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.

(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.

(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.

(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.

(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.

(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.

(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:

(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.

(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military

[SGDrummie]

Eastern Drummer,

It seems as though there will be no way of getting through to you on this forum. You apologized in an earlier post for coming across as abrasive, and yet the abrasiveness continues...

If you do not believe what I have to say about the public's perceptions then may I suggest that you go to the History, Tradition, Heritage forum, here on BB, and check out the "When would you wear Full Ceremonial Attire" thread. I am certainly not alone in my beliefs, and the admen and Scottish marketing folks are on the same wagon. This might not synch with your version of reality, but it's right there for you to see if you wish.

You are completely wrong about the Closing on that Sunday at Loon. I was there, and I was one of the numerous Drum Majors who were leading that wave into the lodge (not one DM as you asserted on another thread). It was determined that the last wave would march into the lodge, and as far as I am aware, our entire wave (which I believe was 3 bands)did march in, where there was already a band playing on the 2nd level. Being the Closing on the last day, there may have been some folks who decided to excuse themselves, but in no way was it a situation of any bands being abused, which your tone suggests.

I actually have a couple of questions now for you- First, if pipe bands "despise" doing massed bands, then how do you account for pipe bands who aren't in competition showing up at games specifically to partake in the massed bands, or the too numerous to count, individual pipers and drummers who show up for the same reason?

Secondly, since you were obviously at Glasgowlands and some other local events, if what you saw irritated you so much, why didn't you come up and speak with some of us DMs instead of airing your grievences on a public forum such as this? Hell, I even invited you to come down to the Scotland CT games to have a friendly debate over a few pints, but no Eastern Drummer was there that I know of.

Some of your previous comments have an air of wanting to inflame and be divisive, so it makes me wonder what your motives truly are.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[Eastern Drummer]

I actually have a couple of questions now for you- First, if pipe bands "despise" doing massed bands, then how do you account for pipe bands who aren't in competition showing up at games specifically to partake in the massed bands, or the too numerous to count, individual pipers and drummers who show up for the same reason?

Secondly, since you were obviously at Glasgowlands and some other local events, if what you saw irritated you so much, why didn't you come up and speak with some of us DMs instead of airing your grievences on a public forum such as this? Hell, I even invited you to come down to the Scotland CT games to have a friendly debate over a few pints, but no Eastern Drummer was there that I know of.

Some of your previous comments have an air of wanting to inflame and be divisive, so it makes me wonder what your motives truly are.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

First off. Bands do not hate massed bands. It was a long weekend and many wanted to go home. Bands travel a long way and have to stand on that field (in loon’s case pavement) for a long time. Loon’s massed bands were too long as it was and it was ridiculous to march them even more after. At Loon, your plain wrong! I was in that wave. There were more than 3 bands and when we saw where we were going several bailed.

Secondly there is nothing wrong with posting an opinion on an open public forum. My original posting included:

“I recently came back from Loon Mountain, where I saw more drum majors than I have ever seen in one place. Although I am not a drum major, I can appreciate one that knows what he/she is doing. But I need to ask, What is with all the "dress up" I saw a drum major lead a massed band wave in fatigues. British fatigues at that. I'm not certain but I believe he was not in the British army. Also do all these drum majors lead bands? And if so where was their band uniform. Again I appreciate what a drum major does, but I don't understand all the role-playing.”
The more I heard the less sense it made. It appears to me that this “reenacting, dress up, or costume play” (whatever you want to call it) occurs in New England and a few games in NY. I will state my opinion again. Massed bands are not the venue for Reenact or Preserving Military uniforms!!! I’m not saying that it doesn’t have its place somewhere else. Just not on the field with the bands.
You don’t see DM’s playing these games at Maxville (N.Anerican championships) or The World Championships in Scotland so why in the hell is it ok for a few in the states?

I want to hear from other Drum Major’s. It is obvious that there are very few wearing “vintage” uniforms. Those drum major’s out there wearing your band’s kit, what do you think?

[Jim Sloan]

Most ALL the bandsmen I know HATE massed bands, especially overblown closing ceremonies.

Only the newbies enjoy them the first time or two!

Jim

[SGDrummie]

Since I have already stated my opinion on why I have chosen uniforms that pay honor to the Scottish regiments, I won’t continue to argue that point to an intractable audience.

What I will state is the simple fact that, even though I am also a reenactor, I do not participate in massed bands events as such, but rather as a Drum Major who chooses the military style of dress and drill over civilian.

Further, I am an American, participating at events in America, and there are no laws, rules or regulations which prohibit from wearing what I choose, except in competition. For competition I conform to what the EUSPBA sets forth in their rules.

I am also an unaffiliated Drum Major (at present), and as such, I will continue to wear military full dress for massed bands. It is a Scottish event and I am wearing Scottish attire. Just because there are some elements of the pipe band community who dislike the appearance does not give that element carte blanche to try to ban or restrict it in non-competition venues.

Basically, if you don’t like to look at it-don’t look at it! That’s your choice, and it’s the choice of, in my opinion, the majority of spectators who do enjoy it, to be able to see it at the games.

If there should be a proposal to restrict unaffiliated Drum Majors at massed bands to civilian dress, how would that be fair if there are affiliated Drum Majors on parade whose band uniform is military? What’s next? Mandate that all bands be dressed in civilian attire for massed bands? Another thing to consider is whether we, as a community, are willing to exclude and alienate experienced administrative personnel (DMs) from the massed bands solely because of their choice of uniform?

Just as some in the community may not like military dress, I personally don’t like to wear civilian dress. If the issue is continuity at massed bands, well there is a whole Pandora’s Box just waiting there if we start pointing fingers at bands and individuals who wear their uniforms improperly. Especially when I see a drummer marching in a wave wearing flip-flops or jump-in pipers wearing white popcorn hose with combat boots. ‘Nuff said.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[pancelticpiper]

On the topic of non-military people wearing Highland military uniform, from a piper's perspective, we have to keep in mind that it has a long history.

Civilian pipe bands, from the beginning up until recent decades, have tended to wear military-style uniforms. You'll see many an old photo of, for example, a pipe band wearing full dress with Gordon kilts and Gordon capbadges etc. There was no "reenacting" notion, it was merely the case of a pipe band buying what it fancied, and I don't think that people who had served in the Gordon Highlanders got worked up about it, and nobody arrested the band over an 1898 law. It was clear to everybody that they were a civilian band who happened to wear Gordon things.

Of course recent decades have seen pipe bands move away from military-style full dress to the modern Argyll look, so a pipe band showing up at a games nowadays in Gordon-style full dress might stick out as odd. But there was a recent show on TV showing a recent Braemar games, and there was indeed a civilian pipe band wearing full dress with Gordon tartan, Gordon capbadges, Gordon plaid brooches, etc etc. The Queen herself was there and she didn't seem to mind.

There is, however, a leap of intention between a civilian piper/pipe band/drum major wearing military-style full dress which happens to have some regimental items present, and someone aping military uniform.

I myself went through a complete circle on the issue.
It began with me putting together a full dress outfit to wear for my solo piping gigs. I knew that the dress of the pipers of each Scottish regiment was a law unto itself, down to such minutiae of how the kilt was pleated, how many buttons the spats had, etc etc. It had always struck me as wrong-looking when people mixed up bits from various regiments' uniforms, ergo, I needed to pick one uniform and copy it as accurately as possible.
Well I picked the Argyll &amp; Sutherland Highlanders (don't really know why) and spent years aquiring and wearing a uniform like that.
Then one day I was at a local Highland Games and I saw all these reenactor-types walking around in horrid abominations of Scottish military uniforms- wearing all sorts of bits mixed together, quite embarrassing-looking to anyone familiar with the real uniforms- and it hit me that I was doing the same thing.
I sold all that Argyll stuff I had spent 20 years gathering and started putting together a purely civilian full dress uniform.

But to this day I really appreciate it when I see somebody dressed in a military uniform who gets it all right (rare as it is). There's knowledge and respect and dedication on display there.

So to my eye it comes down to, if you're going to dress military do it right 100%. Pick a specific regiment, a specific order of dress, and a specific time period, and do it right. If you don't have what it takes, don't do a half@$$ job of it, stick to civilian military-style full dress. (I know "civilian military-style full dress" sounds like an oxymoron, but I mean a form of dress with doublet, feather bonnet, horsehair sporran, etc which is non-regimental.)


(PS many of the people I saw wearing confused, mixed-up abominations of Scottish military uniform were, ironically, ex-US military who I'm sure would be outraged to see a non-American wearing a mixed-up abomination of US military uniform.)

[Eastern Drummer]

1st and fore most. Do I think you should wear a military uniform outside an official re-enactment?
----NO!

Do I think games committees should let individuals take the field in something other than civilian dress?
---NO!
(Exception made if there was a whole band of re-enactors participating. Or an actual military band)

Do other participants in massed bands compete in one uniform then change into a “costume” for massed bands?
----NO!

Do I think anyone that is not active military personal or a veteran look silly in shorts, fatigues, fatigue sweaters, ect…
---Absolutely!

Do I think that any drum major that wears these types of uniforms (regardless of how competent you are with a mace) is merely pretending to be in the military?
---Absolutely!!!

Is the mere notion of massed bands about gathering several musical groups together to play at once for the amusement and pleasure of the audience?
----Absolutely!!

The big issue here is massed bands is about the music. Not a costume contest. Sure many bandsmen don’t like them because we play the same old tunes for the public that we have played a million times. However it is an attempt to get as many pipers and drummers together to dazzle the public musically.

Are there re-enactors at highland games? Sure, and they serve a purpose. However not on the field with the bands. You want to wear both hats? Fine. Be a re-enactor and take pictures with the public at the games. However if you are going to take a band/wave, remove the costume!

In my opinion, massed bands are not a re-enactment. If you wear a military uniform as a civilian (unless you’re a veteran) you’re a fraud!

Nuff Said!

[pancelticpiper]

If you wear a military uniform as a civilian (unless you’re a veteran) you’re a fraud!


I would go one step further and propose that it's inappropriate for a veteran of the US military to wear the uniform of a UK regiment.

[SithDrumMajor]

YAY!!!! Thanks

[SmokeEater]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eastern Drummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you wear a military uniform as a civilian (unless you’re a veteran) you’re a fraud!


I would go one step further and propose that it's inappropriate for a veteran of the US military to wear the uniform of a UK regiment. </div></div> So just because I was in the Navy I cant be a reenactor in His Majesty's 17th Foot and Mouth if I wanted? :confused: I thought I defended this country so I could make my own choices, not have them forced on me.
If SGDrummie wants to wear a uniform at a Games and he does it well and its not against the rules, let him. I think Crocs are stupid looking, but I dont go around trying to get them banned.

[Eastern Drummer]

[/quote]


If SGDrummie wants to wear a uniform at a Games and he does it well and its not against the rules, let him. I think Crocs are stupid looking, but I dont go around trying to get them banned.[/quote]

No you misread my position. You want to wear that uniform at the games, great go for it. However my position was that if your going to lead a massed bands or a wave you need to wear similar dress as the occasion calls. Massed bands of civilian pipe bands should not be led by a re-enactor looking for a spot light. I don't care if you’re an open drum major. That is not the venue for your personal custom party.

[SmokeEater]

No you misread my position. You want to wear that uniform at the games, great go for it. However my position was that if your going to lead a massed bands or a wave you need to wear similar dress as the occasion calls. Massed bands of civilian pipe bands should not be led by a re-enactor looking for a spot light. I don't care if you’re an open drum major. That is not the venue for your personal custom party.
Maybe its because I'm new to druming. I'm still learning and wouldnt even think about competing, but the tone of most of the post in this thread are caustic at best. I wonder if the same tone would be used if we were all in the same beer tent. I hope not.

[SGDrummie]

Well-spoken, Smoke Eater!

We know that there will always be people, in any given community, who seem to enjoy creating divisiveness and headaches with their pettiness and wonton disregard for other peoples desire for personal expression if it doesn’t synch with their own. Hence the increasingly popular American pastime of banning or restricting this, that or any other previously enjoyed freedoms. By personal expression, I do not mean being able to march in a wave wearing jeans and a T-shirt, but rather within the constraints of legitimate uniform. The Drum Majors who are being trashed here were and are in proper “Highland attire” in that the uniforms were and are accurate in their fit, form and configuration. Some folks may not like this particular look or have issues with non-military participants wearing military uniforms that are perfectly legal to wear, and would like to ban or restrict them. That is the issue here.

This whole episode reminds me of another picayune issue which cropped up about 7-8 years ago when certain elements of the competition community decided to aim their mewling at Police service bands wearing their sidearms during competition. Utter nonsense, and if were not germane to my point, it would hardly be worth dredging it up again. But there it is.

Band snobs abound, regardless of what music performance genre you choose. Unfortunately, in our community of pipers and drummers, this seems (in my opinion) to be more prevalent in the upper grade competitive bands here in the US. Whenever you hear the mantra, “It’s about the music! It’s only EVER about the music!”, more often than not, you can see a slow decline in Dress, Drill and Deportment. Bands “bailing” during a massed band wave are a prime example. You stay in formation until you are dismissed by the lead Drum Major. Period. That’s part of deportment and it’s just as important to the overall performance as the tuning of your drones or drums. Or, how about pipers and drummers wearing baseball caps during massed bands instead of glengarries, balmorals or other proper headwear? That’s what I’ve noticed.

I have developed the opinion, over the last 15 years or better, that I would much rather lead a competent, non-competitive street band in any given event or parade over a number of US grade 2 or 3 bands- hands down. Not all, mind you, but far more than I would have thought. At least a large percentage of these street bands are cognizant of the proper mace and voice commands and they pay attention. That along with their common desire for correct drill and for actually performing on the street, i.e. creating formations such as the Saltire and others while on the march, or countermarching where the crowd is dense and particularly appreciative, makes marching with these units far more fulfilling from a performer’s perspective regardless if the band has a military or civilian persona. I’d have to applaud them all simply because they pay attention.

I can’t even begin to recall every time I’ve cringed during massed bands events when cut-offs are signaled and end up winding down to their painful and embarrassing conclusions solely because a few bands in the wave either didn’t know what the signal meant, or weren’t paying attention and missed it entirely.

“It’s about the music.” “I hate the massed bands.” “I don’t like all this marching and standing.”, etc. etc. ad nauseum. When I was a piper, I absolutely loved performing and marching, the more the better! That’s why I joined a “marching” band. I mean, really, if anybody dislikes the marching or drill/deportment aspects of what they do so much, go and form a bagpipe orchestra somewhere so you don’t have to put yourself through the torture, or end up torturing those of us who DO enjoy it.

Anyone wants to complain about my uniforms- fine. You are certainly free to do so and are entitled to your own opinion. So am I, and in my opinion, I feel you probably have more important issues to focus on than what Drum Majors choose to wear during non-competitive events. Actually, I’d like to address one of my own pet peeves which pertains to drummers… when a DM is trying to square off the drum ranks of a massed band wave, please understand that you are in a massed band and not a competition circle, so it doesn’t really matter who you end up marching next to or what band they are from. Assuming everyone knows the scores for the tunes to be played, you aren’t being judged, so there’s no need to keep your band’s drum corps as a homogenous unit. Just move to where you’re needed to make the drum ranks align neatly with the pipe ranks so your wave doesn’t look like a gaggle of geese coming onto the parade ground. Please. These are the types of issues which should be far more important than what type of uniform someone chooses to wear.


Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[pancelticpiper]

...upper grade competitive bands here in the US... you can see a slow decline in Dress, Drill and Deportment.
...I would much rather lead a competent, non-competitive street band in any given event or parade over a number of US grade 2 or 3 bands... .



I've been in the pipe band scene for over 30 years, and I've noticed quite the opposite. The higher level a pipe band competes at, the better kitted-out they are, the better they wear their kit, the better they keep in step/phase, the better their deportment.

It's at the lowest levels of competition bands, and especially non-competition bands, where I see over and over mismatching kit, kit worn incorrectly, poor posture, poor marching, etc etc.

I actually proved this point in a thread here a while back. My contention was that any experienced pipe band piper could, at sight, make a pretty accurate guess as to the playing level of a pipe band by simply looking at a photograph of the band.
I posted photos (taken off the various band's own websites) of a non-competition "street" band, a grade 4 band, and a grade 2 band. Before the moderators shut it down, EVERY person who got in a guess correctly guessed the various band's levels. (The moderators had received protests about the posting of the photos, in spite of the fact that each photo was proudly displayed on the actual band's own websites.)

Just watch the DVD of the grade one bands at the Worlds: every band's kit is flawless, everything is worn correctly, everyone's deportment is perfect. These people take everything very seriously.

I've made a couple comments about HOW the kit is worn. At the highest levels of competition bands you'll see properly worn kilts (the right length), ghillies tied correctly, hose worn at a uniform height, flashes consistent, glengarries worn properly, etc etc. At the lowest levels you'll see hose turnovers of varying height, flashes akimbo, ghillies tied in various strange ways, kilts too short or too long, sporrans hanging too low, neckties sloppy, glengarries shoved too far back on the head, mismatching capbadges, etc etc. In addition, pipers will notice mismatching bagcovers or cords, drones spacing varying wildly from piper to piper, poor piping posture, etc etc.

[Eastern Drummer]

I have to agree with pancelticpiper. You obviously live in a bubble if you think that there is a decline in dress and deportment with higher-level bands. Take a very careful look next summer and watch a highly competitive pipe band march to the line or to the massed bands field. I think you will be impressed. Not to mention look at their uniforms they’re near perfect. When I watch a non-competitive pipe band or street band, I wonder if they have ever even heard of a mirror or an iron! :roflmao:

[SGDrummie]

Pancelticpiper- I did state that what I had observed pertains to pipe bands here in the US...not at the Worlds. There is a far cry from the quality you can see between bands in Scotland (best), Canada (a little less), and the United States (still needs work). I also said that it was not all upper grade bands but rather far more than I would have initially thought to be the case.

One must also take a bands time in existence into consideration when judging their appearance, as most new bands inevitably go through the gamut of finding the right suppliers/fitters, and the right balance of components to get the look they want. There are plenty of outfitters who don't know what they are about but will speak with "expertise" on uniform matters when asked, so if a band's quartermaster perhaps doesn't know themselves, they will believe they are getting the correct articles from these suppliers, when in fact, they are not.

As far as drill and deportment goes, I've seen good concentration as bands approach their competition circle and when they march on/off, but in the massed bands...I'd have to disagree a good percentage of the time.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[Eastern Drummer]

Oh, Oh, Oh…. SGDrummie you have got to be kidding me! You actually believe that a non-competitive parade band can hold a candle to any band in this list. You need to get out more! Here is a list of almost all grade III and higher pipe bands in EUSPBA and WUSPBA (I may have left out a few) Now I believe there are 5 bands in this list that I have not seen in person or marched on the field with. You are gonna tell me that the bands in this list don’t know how to wear their uniforms correctly or march on parade. Ha. You tell them that. You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about. :confused:
“I have developed the opinion, over the last 15 years or better, that I would much rather lead a competent, non-competitive street band in any given event or parade over a number of US grade 2 or 3 bands- hands down. Not all mind you, but far more than I would have thought. At least a large percentage of these street bands are cognizant of the proper mace and voice commands and they pay attention. That along with their common desire for correct drill and for actually performing on the street, i.e.”
You kidding me!!!! You're joking right???

Atlanta Pipe Band (GA)
Balmoral Highlanders (Pittsburgh, PA)
Bergen Irish Pipe Band
Capital Region Celtic (Capital Region, NY)
Carnegie Mellon University Pipes and Drums (Pittsburgh, PA)
Catamount Pipe Band (VT)
Charleston Police Pipes and Drums
City of Dunedin Pipe Band (FL)
City of Washington Pipe Band (DC)
Dofasco Pipe Band
Grandfather Mountain Highlanders Pipe Band (NC)
MacMillan Pipe Band (Montgomery County, MD)
Manchester Pipe Band (CT)
Manchester Regional Police &amp; Fire Pipes and Drums (CT)
Mohawk Valley Frasers
Monaghan Pipe Band
Oran Mor Pipe Band (New York state)
Saffron United Pipe Band (Babylon, NY)
St. Columcille United Gaelic Pipe Band (Kearny, NJ)
Schenectady Pipe Band (NY)
Sean McGonigal Memorial Pipe Band
Stuart Highland Pipe Band
Tulach Ard Pipe Band (Boston, MA)
Ulster Scottish Pipe Band (Philadelphia, PA)
Worcester Kiltie Band (Massachusetts)
Cabar Feidh Pipe Band
Irish Pipers Band of San Francisco
James J. Coyne Memorial Pipe Band
Los Angeles Scots Pipe Band
Prince Charles Pipe Band
Colorado Skye Pipes and Drums
Salt Lake Scots
Leigh Pipe Band
Silver Thistle P+D
St. Andrews Presyterian
St. Thomas Episcopal

[Eastern Drummer]

By the way...

" I did state that what I had observed pertains to pipe bands here in the US...not at the Worlds. There is a far cry from the quality you can see between bands in Scotland (best), Canada (a little less), and the United States (still needs work)."

Go to Maxville next year and tell every Grade 2 and Grade 1 band what you think of their quality.

[SmokeEater]

Why is it so difficult to have a conversation without people getting pissy on here? It is quite obvious that a few will look down on anyone who has a different opinion. If this is what I have to look forward to, I don’t think I want to join a competition band. I’ll stick with the fire dept. based street band and actually enjoy myself when I play.

[SGDrummie]

Well, there are some folks who can't stand it when others don't share their point of view and, being incapable of understanding that in debate one does not debate the person but rather the issue, they think that the only way that they can "win" is to make their arguments personal and caustic.

There is no "win" or "lose" here. Only sharing of opinions and ideas. Eastern Drummer has the opinion that I am a "fraud" and that I should not be able to wear my military DM's uniform during massed bands. He's entitled to that opinion and he certainly has the right to state it. I've stated my reasons for choosing the military style of things and he does not agree. That's his right also. Usually, this leads (or shoud lead) to the participants in the debate agreeing to disagree and let's go celebrate the debate over a couple of pints. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to have a chance of happening here.

I am also entitled to my opinions, and the ones I have stated here are those that I have had for some time now. They are based entirely on my own experiences over the years taking part in Scottish events. Eastern Drummer does not agree, and it's apparent that he feels the need to attempt to belittle and challenge to make his point. Sorry state of affairs.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[pancelticpiper]

I did state that what I had observed pertains to pipe bands here in the US...not at the Worlds.

What I've observed has also been mostly bands in the US but also at various Games in Scotland including the Worlds.
Now I do agree more or less with your ranking of various countries, in that I noticed in Scotland that even the lowliest Grade 4B bands were well kitted-out. Seems that over there everybody knows how long a kilt should be, how ghillies should be tied, how hose and glens should be worn, etc etc. Over here there seems to often be a combination of ignorance and indifference which results in many non-competition bands looking awful. Competition bands, on the other hand, are more "in the loop" both musically and dress-wise, and the higher level at which they compete, the more up-to-date and accomplished they become both in dress and in music.

And I may point out that making a distinction between "bands in the US" and "bands at the Worlds" is not correct, as when I was competing there in 2007 there were quite a few US bands there. Yep last time I checked the LA Scots, Oran Mor, City of Washington, etc etc etc were US bands.

One must also take a bands time in existence into consideration when judging their appearance, as most new bands inevitably go through the gamut of finding the right suppliers/fitters, and the right balance of components to get the look they want.

Like the Spirit Of Scotland Pipe Band? They got together one WEEK before the 2008 World Pipe Band Championships. Look at the documentary trailer mentioned on the Pipe Band Forum.

[SGDrummie]

OK, my bad...I should have specified Scottish bands at the Worlds. I felt my point was obvious without that caveat.

As far as the Spirit of Scotland PB goes, well I'd have to say that you are stretching a bit. I'm sure that any pipe band here in the States starting out with Glenfiddich as a sponsor and a long list of piping and drumming notables on their roster would have all the knowledge and financial resources at hand to make their uniform choices a go with the first shot. Street bands here don't have that luxury.

Changing the subject for a bit, may I say that your photo in full dress is quite impressive? Very well done, as is your photo in the 79th Camerons of NY uniform. What shade of blue is that coatee, and where might I find a reference for it? Was that a color that was used specifically for the pipers? I have a friend here in MA that does a 79th NY impression.

Also, I have a piping related question that perhaps you can help me with. I was given a set of pipes by my first instructor and I'm having a tough time identifying them. They appear to be 3/4 size, though the drones look to be set up for full size reeds. I've hunted around, casually, for any markings, but so far have found none.

I was a piper for a number of years until a dog bite to the upper lip did me in. Lack of muscle in that area prevents me from playing full size GHBs, but I find that I can manage with shuttle pipes and the like. If I could somehow set these 3/4s up with very easy reeds, I may be able to play them. Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[Joel LaMarre]

Eastern Drummer- I am a piper and a newcomer to these forums. I've noticed the to-and-fro between yourself (and those who agree with you) and SGDrummie (and those who agree with him) and, although not a drum major, I must toss my opinion into the fray.
Regarding Loon Mtn games of recent vintage- The parade into the lodge is certainly of tradition born. Other massed bands parade into a beer tent. I think that the Loon practice is better. SGDrummie said it best. Also, from my vantagepoint in the pipers block, I can't see too much of what is going on up front and how the drummies are dressed. I am much too busy playing the music and trying to avoid my drones becoming tangled, and getting hit by mallets wielded by the drummers coming through in the other direction. I've seen the DM competitions and exhibitions as well as the drummies leading the massed bands when I am working as a vendor at games. The spectacle is what draws the crowds. That spectacle consists of the colour, the pagentry and certainly the music made by a few hundred people decked out in Scottish regalia. Sure, some of them are in thrown together uniforms and some are in neat civilian style Argyll jackets and vests. And some are even in fatigues-if that is what their band is wearing for whatever reason. It's all great! Certainly those folks who are in British military dress will stick out somewhat. Y'know why? Because they appear sharper, look 'authentic' and emanate an air of authority and pizzazz. They look like they know what they are doing because they DO. Their drill is not muddled or sloppy, but crisp and business-like. We in the pipe section can hear them and because their accoutrements are so distinctive, they are easily spotted.
Having marched behind one of these military accoutred drummies in my former pipe band, I've gotta admit that it is a real gas to march down the avenue behind this guy. As was said, he is the face of the band. If he looks dynamite, some of that kinda rubs off on us behind him.
I'd never EVER want to see the individuality and creativity ironed out of the drum majors competitions or thier massed-band uniform choices. The military guys who are paying their respects to Scottish regiments since amalgamated or disbanded are not re-enacting or playing dress up, they are doing a great job as drum majors in the truest sense of the role-and adding a lot to the overall spectacle of the massed bands whilst thier expertise at handling bodies of musicians on a parade ground is NEVER to be underestimated.
Joel LaMarre
Winthrop, MA

-BYDAND

[LVDM]

Just logged on to the site. I was at the Loon Mountain Games this past fall. The drum major who wore the Scots Guards Uniform was a very fine drum major with excellent drill. In fact, there was a former drum major of the Scots Guards and the Argyll Sutherland Pipe Bands at the games. Both thought this drum major did a fine job and had no complaints about the uniform. He did not wear medals. There are many re-enactment organizations in the U.S. as long as they wear the uniform in a correct and respectful way I think there is no problem. Some drum majors I have worked with have gone as far as to obtain permission from the regiments to wear the uniform. I think the drum majors should be more concerned about the sloppy way many pipe bands are turned out in civilian dress then a very dedicated drum major portraying a regimental drum major in perfect order.

K.Misch, L.A. Scots

[SGDrummie]

Aye, Ken, well said and a big welcome to Dunsire's! Hopefully see you in CT.

Best Regards,
Tom Belyea, DM

[pancelticpiper]

as long as they wear the uniform in a correct and respectful way I think there is no problem. Some drum majors I have worked with have gone as far as to obtain permission from the regiments to wear the uniform.
K.Misch, L.A. Scots

Exactly true, Ken! I was at one Games talking to a DM decked out in flawless No2 Dress of a specific Scottish regiment, and he whipped out of his pocket a letter from the actual regiment granting their permission for him to be so dressed.

So if anyone takes umbrage, he's prepared.