Grading?

[Mitch Man]

Should a band that has been in gr4 for a number
of years be pushed up to gr3 if they have
won a prize?

Isn't a gr3 band just a very good grade 4 band
and the gr4 level is reserved for bands just
starting out?

My feeling is Gr4 should be used for building
bands and introducing them to competition!
Grade 3 is for serious competive bands that
don't want to climb the grading ladder or don't
have the opportunity or resouces to make it in grade 2!

Gr1 of course is for the polished bands!

JM

[Jeff Boyle]

Mitch,

I'd have to agree that a band that wins the season in Grade IV should move up to Grade III the following year. I feel there are so many bands that play in Grade IV that in order for a winning band to play in a more competitive field is just what is needed to progress and succeed. Not to knock Grade IV or judges but when your competing against 25 other bands and there are 2 or 3 bands that even have a chance. Why take the opportunity away from the majority. Move UP and COMPETE!! Just thought I'd offer my two cents. :D

[Mitch Man]

Good point Jeff!

What is the point fo winning grade 4 when you know your band can walk it!

Here's another point I stole from the drumming
about gr4 bands wanting to play tunes from
either a World's CD or tunes far above their heads:

Originally posted by Blair Brown:


Those tunes are nice and I can understand your band and other bands wanting to play them.
Great melody.... heartbeat ... foot tapping.... and very difficult for a grade 4 band to play.
Hearing a decent grade 2 band execute the finer undercurrents of those great Piping tunes
Will turn heads in any park. Now a grade 4 band playing them might drive them away. If these
Tunes are fun for your band .. Go for it. If these tunes were for competing I would advise
Picking Pipe music that would reflect the standard of your grade 4 band.
The Conundrum might cut it, Drumming wise but Piping ..... Easier tunes are obtainable. You might
Want your PM to ask that question about the tune selection in the Piping Forum.

Just my opinion.

Buzz
SFUPB

I have to ask the question, If a gr4 band is capable of playing these tunes well in GR4,
are they a gr4 band?

What gives?

JM

[Rusty Dirk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mitch Man:
[QB]Should a band that has been in gr4 for a number
of years be pushed up to gr3 if they have
won a prize?

Isn't a gr3 band just a very good grade 4 band
and the gr4 level is reserved for bands just
starting out?

If you have proven yourself in Gr 4 then you should advance to Gr3.

There is a noticable difference in playing ability from Gr4 to Gr3, or at least there should be. Some bands will compete in Gr3 because they think they are better than they really are or their ego's get in the way. Here in BC, Canada we recently added a Gr5 to handle the wide range of abilities.

[Mitch Man]

Originally posted by Rusty Dirk:
Isn't a gr3 band just a very good grade 4 band
and the gr4 level is reserved for bands just
starting out?


I could have sworn I wrote this in another forum,
but yes you are right!

Bands should win a few prizes and then move on to
the real competition in the next level.

JM

[AWPIPER]

The only problem with moving a band up would be if your competitors change every year.For the well established bands this is not a major concern.It is the Grade 4 bands that have the biggest turn over rate.

If you are to move that band to a higher competition level are you now not limiting the people in that band that can compete?

As no one goes into a competition with the expectations of losing.You will pick the personnel most likely to help achieve your goals.

This does challenge the less experienced pipers to improve and hone their skills,but it also creates the need for bands to have more then one grade of competition band.In which case are we not now increasing the number of bands in each grade?
When the whole purpose of upgrading bands in the first place is to make a more "even" field of competition.

Just my thoughts.....
Mark :D
AWPIPER@AOL.COM (mailto:AWPIPER@AOL.COM)

[Chris Hossack]

Speaking from my perspective as a PM, an adjudicator and from having served several different terms as a PB association Pres., this is a lot more complicated subject than merely whether a Gr.IV band wins fairly regularly. You have to look at where the wins occur and the competition, for one thing. If a band isn't winning regularly in "major" contests against lots of highly competitive bands, this doesn't sound like a band that should move up. You also need to look at the make-up of the band. How will it handle going into a higher grade and likely getting its brains beat out for awhile, after being so successful in Gr. IV -- in my "association" experience, very rarely does a Gr. IV band immediately become competitive in Gr. III. The gap is huge, whether the Gr. IV band thinks so, or not. That is why bands in our association don't move up on their own volition. Moving up requires an affirmative recommendation from our Advisory Committee, which looks at all these considerations.

[Mitch Man]

I guess I just don't comprehend the concept of a perpetual gr4 band, unless they are a farm band
in bigger band structure where the better players
are harvested when their ripe and ready. :wink:

To put this in perspective, lets talk about a band that has won a few contests at the Majors.
If they were capable of winning these contests in
the beginners grade, why wouldn't they want to
move up.?

I'm not saying that any band should be forced
to move where they don't want to, what grade
they play in is their business and their time
and energy, but it just seems to me that too
many bands are focused on prizes and titles when
they are afraid to make the jump and take some losses.

JM

[Jeff Boyle]

Once again I'm going to have to agree with John. Chris, I guess where we sit (in Ontario) the competition is very strong and the bands are "many". Maybe where you are from there aren't a lot of bands. Here there are at least 15-20 Grade 4 bands at any given major. Like John says, why wouldn't a winning Grade 4 band want to move up? Aren't we in this to impove? A band will never get better if they don't play competitively.

Cheers :D

[Chris Hossack]

I'm not saying a band shouldn't strive to move up, but my experience is that even if a band can put together a string of local successes, it's not necessarily productive to move up just to create a challenge or satisfy an ego. ANAPBA is working towards some standardization of grading criteria with the goal of making band grades somewhat equal across North America and with Scotland. In WUSPBA we have some 40 Grade IV bands and there probably isn't one that could reasonably expect to make the GrIV A prize list at the Worlds -- although we have recently had a GrIV B champion -- and the majority of our Grade IV bands are not anywhere near that strong. If a band can't at least crack the top ten in the Grade IV A list in Scotland, I don't think it should even consider moving to Gr.III. If the grading systems are reasonably equal, a Gr.IV band that can't challenge to top Gr. IV bands in any other association or at the Worlds, shouldn't expect to have any success in Gr.III -- and if it can, that association probably needs to reexamine its grading system. All that moving bands up before they reasonably can compete in a higher grade does is diminish the credibility of the entire grading system when compared with the rest of North America and Scotland. In other words, a band should not be moved up because it tries hard, consists of nice people, it will make the members feel good, etc. It should be moved up only when it demonstrates it really belongs in the higher grade. How do you do that? Consistently make the prize list at the big contests like Maxville, Pleasanton -- or the Worlds, etc.

By way of example, my Gr.III band hasn't finished lower than 4th in the WUSPBA Champion of Champions scoring for the past 7-8 years, and has even won this title in that time period (we took a 4th our first time in Chatham a couple of years ago). In 2001, going out with the best band I've ever been able to field, we were proud to take 10th in Gr. IIIB our first time competing in Glasgow. But, just because we have been one of the more successful Gr. III bands in WUSPBA, we would be foolish to think we are yet ready for the challenge of Gr.II -- in WUSPBA or anywhere else -- until we stand a fair chance of making the prize list in Gr.IIIA in Scotland.

Anyway, this is fun stuff to kick around.

Happy New Year to all.

[FANATIC PIPER]

:rolleyes: Such a healthy discussion on this grey area is great as it eventually leads to better understanding between differnt associations. And as the purpose of a forum such as this is to allow everone a fair crack at the whip I am going to add my thoughts on this subject matter. Here in Scotland it is assumed by many that in order to achieve promotion to a higher grade you must be able to show a playing standard acceptable to that grade you are being promoted to. This does not always mean that the winners of the majors or the champion of champions get automatic promotion because they are the best in their grade, grade 4 or otherwise. An example of this was Bucksburn and District of Aberdeen who were dominant in grade 2 for many years but have only recently been promoted to grade 1 at the end of the 2000 season. to recap, winning should not mean automatic promotion, however an ability to play at a standard appropriate for that grade should be the deciding factor. Also I feel that a band should be promoted regardless of there wishes as it would prevent glory hunters hogging the limelight all the time. if this was the case maybe Bucksburn and District would have liked to be winners in grade 2 for the rest of eternity.

[Eric M]

I agree with Chris. I don't think a G4 band should move up to grade 3 until it is consistently competitive at major G4 events.

When I first joined my G4 band three seasons ago, I thought it was great that they had won Costa Mesa and naively looked forward to being part of a band I thought was ready to move to G3. I realize now that while we do well (we've ended up 3rd overall in WUSPBA each of the last three years), we still have consistency and strategic problems to work out before we are ready for G3.

I also notice that some G3 bands aren't able to maintain their momentum and have to drop back to G4. Sometimes I wonder if WUSPBA should have a fifth grade like EUSPBA and MWPBA. Maybe then G4 bands wouldn't feel the need to move up to G3 as early.

Mitch Man said:
Isn't a gr3 band just a very good grade 4 band and the gr4 level is reserved for bands just
starting out?

My feeling is Gr4 should be used for building bands and introducing them to competition!

I would agree with that but with reference to G4/G5 (or G4a/G4b).

Eric