Qualifying for the Worlds Grade 1 Final

[FANATIC PIPER]

When there is a large turnout for a grade at a competition having a qualifier and a final can speed up the process considerably as it is possible to split the bands in half and have two competing at the same time. However at the Worlds in Grade 1 there is a process whereby even when there is a small turnout for this grade,( something like 22 in 2001) there has to be a qualifier and a final, some bands not even having to qualify and are put through on the basis of previous results at majors and the previous years Worlds results.The process takes even longer then ( it did this year anyway ). If it is your day then I say you are going to win regardless of the reults of a morning qualifier and the overall results shouldn't change that much. The whole process seems like a waste of time and effort and should it not be that everyone gets a fair shot in the arena. I would be interested to hear any other opinions on this subject especially from anyone else involved in grade 1, at home or overseas.

[Joe Foley]

It is interesting that the entry for "Qualifying" bands in Grade 1 at this years Worlds was one of the smallest in years. I say that because I believe that a total of 8 bands for the morning went through to the final. I don't think I am wrong about that, but correct me if I am.

I remember playing in Grade 1 with the LA Scots in '98 and '99. We had to play in the qualifier both times over. In '98 we were 7th in the morning and did not get through, in '99 we were also 7th in the morning and did get through...??

Obviously, the influence of bands coming from outside the UK has played a big role in the actual number of bands that qualify for the final......I for one am pleased with that.

Cheers,

Joe

[Mitch Man]

Too many bands???????

This is where I have a Big problem with this format!

All the grades are saturated with bands that
haven't got a chance in hell of ever getting into the prize list and it only discredits the whole contest in terms of trying to fairly judge it!

There has to be a filter process to eliminate the
bands that do not qualify as a contender.
Trying to judge 15 bands is a chore never mind 30
to 40 bands in a single grade.

If this process was put in place, then perhaps it
would bring some meaning to the contest title and
it wouldn't be a "just come as you please"
type if contest!

An idea would be to have an Open contest on the Saturday for those that just wanted to participate and play at the Worlds and then have
the real contest on the Sunday with just the 15
bands that qualified that year in each grade.

JM

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

[Ian White]

"An idea would be to have an Open contest on the Saturday for those that just wanted to participate and play at the Worlds and then have
the real contest on the Sunday with just the 15
bands that qualified that year in each grade.JM"


Great idea... problem is, in Scotland there are no competitions on Sunday's... so a Friday-Saturday format would have to be inlisted. The only thing to change... make it so five bands can automatically qualify for the final round, but are required to play on Friday to keep everything on the up and up... results from Friday determine draw for Saturday.

Ian

[Glenn Brown]

Ian, I believe that in Scotland there is a highland games on every sunday of the competition season. For example, the day after the worlds is Perth. Where did you hear that they didnt have games on sunday's?

Cheers,
Glenn Brown

[FANATIC PIPER]

I will confirm Glenn's statement, there is usually at least one competition every weekend during the summer months, frequently on a Sunday. Perth as already mentioned and after the worlds, and importantly ( although in recent years numbers are down ) Bridge of Allan on the Sunday before the Worlds which is sometimes seen as build up to the Worlds and has been used in the past by some overseas bands as an indicator of their standing against other bands in the same grade.
Also if the only point was to take part for lower bands in grade 1 and it somehow diminishes the competition in general that they take part why bother turning up and trying to improve if you are excluded from having a chance to prove yourself as a band. You might as well be in grade 2.
As a point of note , I played in the qualifier at the Worlds this Year (2001) and qualified, but I still feel it is an injustice that many bands are denied a chance to be properly listened to rather than dismissed by judges as an also ran. :rolleyes:

[Chris Hamilton]

Joe said:

>It is interesting that the entry
>for "Qualifying" bands in Grade 1
>at this years Worlds was one of the
>smallest in years. I say that because
>I believe that a total of 8 bands for
>the morning went through to the final.
>I don't think I am wrong about that,
>but correct me if I am.

Not correct. There were EIGHT bands pre-qualified for various reasons, and SIX taken from the qualifying round of 11 or 14 or something.

That 9 a.m. cold rain draw was a killer!

Chris

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Chris Hamilton:
Joe said:

>It is interesting that the entry
>for "Qualifying" bands in Grade 1
>at this years Worlds was one of the
>smallest in years. I say that because
>I believe that a total of 8 bands for
>the morning went through to the final.
>I don't think I am wrong about that,
>but correct me if I am.

Not correct. There were EIGHT bands pre-qualified for various reasons, and SIX taken from the qualifying round of 11 or 14 or something.

That 9 a.m. cold rain draw was a killer!

Chris

I think the year Joe was referring to was the year the Vic Police left the field. They had 1 fewer pre qualified, so they took an extra band from the qualifiers.

[Joe Foley]

Actually Drew, that is incorrect. Chris was right to correct me...that's why I asked to be corrected if I was wrong!! :)

Joe

[strongblower]

Maybe you should ask JACK LEE or anyone from SFU.
There, I got them both in.
:eek: :eek:

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Mitch Man:


All the grades are saturated with bands that
haven't got a chance in hell of ever getting into the prize list and it only discredits the whole contest in terms of trying to fairly judge it!

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

A certain G1 band from across the big pond came to the World's last August and were not allowed into G1 but were allowed to play in G2.
Was this band G1? did they have a hope in hell of winning? were they only G2 standard ?
could they have won G2?
Are the criteria for grades different between the various associations?

I'm not getting at you, just curious.

[Terry Lee]

Many interesting suggestions here..

I have so many thoughts with regards to the Worlds, but here are only a very few:

The Worlds are far better now than they have been in the past; especially, in terms of organization, drama, comfort/proximity of spectators. I have been through many variations in planning but finals of any sort create more interest. However, there are lots of ways to make them better..

Grade II is, perhaps, becoming the most interesting class - very competitive and a dramatically rising standard. The problem is there is little hope for bands graduating into Grade 1.

If it were up to me, I would recommend a "Premier Division" (call it what you like) with a very limited number, say 8-10. Only the top bands would be included and 1-2 would be demoted automatically each year. Then you could have automatic promotions/demotions in every grade. An overseeing committee could revise the numbers up, but not down from, say, two.

The Grade 1 would become a free for all - very exciting and real chance to pass on to the Premier class.

That's it for now but, know that I am still around.
Terry.

[Mitch Man]

Originally posted by Terry Lee:
If it were up to me, I would recommend a "Premier Division" (call it what you like) with a very limited number, say 8-10. Only the top bands would be included and 1-2 would be demoted automatically each year.

This idea would be a solution as long as it applies only to this contest as there would
not be any contests outside of Scotland for a premier band to attend.

The present attendance at GR1 contests is sparse
enough as it is, and a new premier grade would
only amplify this problem.

Rather than creating a new grade, I think a simple
process of pre-elimination is needed. The World
Pipe Band Championships should be setup so that
only the cream of the crop are competing in each
grade.

There has to be some sort of pre-qualifying system,
just like in sports when they have the Playoffs!
Perhaps a games or competition the Saturday
before would be needed for those that want to qualify! It could be a Fri/Sat/Sun thing,
what ever it takes to cut down the numbers.

That would be 3 days of Beertenting too! :)

JM

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Mitch Man:


Rather than creating a new grade, I think a simple
process of pre-elimination is needed. The World
Pipe Band Championships should be setup so that
only the cream of the crop are competing in each
grade.
JM

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

Does that mean qualifiers for each grade on the day? The rain can only stay off for so long!

There is a big difference between the ordinary G1 band and the "Cream". A premier grade (for want of a better expression) would be an excellent idea but not a new one as it's been banded about for years now.

[Mitch Man]

True, there is a significant difference between the "Cream of the crop" and the "run of the mill" gr1 band, but this leads to further the confusion of the Grading System and the issue of quality standards in the grades and who belongs where.
The Worlds has always been a contest for 6 bands in terms of winning first place, the rest are just there to participate and it's hard as hell to determine where to place them. Is there really a difference in 8th place from say 14th place?
The bands are all of a high standard and all enjoyable to listen too, but somebody has to lose as this is a contest. The question is, who is the contest for?
Terry's comment about a typical gr2 band not being able to meet the standard of the gr1 is often too true, but I remember 20 years ago when the differences between Gr1 and Gr2 were monumental and now that gap has been narrowed.
There might be the exception where this grade is used as a building platform for gr1 bands in the rebuilding process, but I think the difference now concerninng Gr2 bands is they all have the knowledge to put the pieces together, but they're short of the very talented people it takes to win a World class Gr1 contest.
Winning contests at any level is a matter of work ethic. The better bands practice twice a week, while some other bands have a more casual approach and get together for an hour once a week.
Perhaps another thread is needed for grades, standards and the issue of talent?
The formula isn't complex, get good instruction and work hard!
JM

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mitch Man ]

[AWPIPER]

Mitch Man Wrote:
The formula isn't complex, get good instruction and work hard!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great insight....Mitch man you should carry your post over to beginners forum.It may inspire some of them to strive to attain more.
Cheers, :D
Mark :cool:
AWPIPER@AOL.COM (mailto:AWPIPER@AOL.COM) :rolleyes: :cool: :) :p :D

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Joe Foley:
Actually Drew, that is incorrect. Chris was right to correct me...that's why I asked to be corrected if I was wrong!! :)

Joe

Yeah, that's right. I don't know what I was thinking! I think I was remembering someone saying that there would have been different pre qualifiers had Vic Police been around, but not the number!

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Joe Foley:
Actually Drew, that is incorrect. Chris was right to correct me...that's why I asked to be corrected if I was wrong!! :)

Joe

Yeah, that's right. I don't know what I was thinking! I think I was remembering someone saying that there would have been different pre qualifiers had Vic Police been around, but not the number!

[Mitch Man]

Originally posted by awpiper@aol.com:
Great insight....Mitch man you should carry your post over to beginners forum.It may inspire some of them to strive to attain more

Um. I'm avoiding that place, and the Adult Forum
too until the heat goes down! :)

Somethings your can never discuss!

JM

[FANATIC PIPER]

I am glad some of you have replied in such a varied manner and some of the ideas bandied about are interesting. Some of the opinions would not be my own taste but you have to learn and take on new idioms as life progresses, the ideas of others helps to shape us all. Thanks to everyone who posted here, Fanatic Piper. :)