Band Grading

[ratherbpiping]

I noticed in Pleasonton as probably most anyone who cared to ask about the grade four competition that while there were three grade one bands, five grade 2 bands and about the same for Grade three, there were 21 grade four bands. While it does not surprise me that there are more grade four bands, but that really indicated that there are a lot. I had heard rumblings that bands were snadbagging in Grade four primarily because they wanted to do well when they visited other associations including the Worlds. I generally dismissed that as gripping on the belief that most people and bands wanted to move up in the world and that winning was not everything. To continue to dominate in a grade would not do a band any good and that band would move up. I question now whether my thinking was too generous. Is there really a log jam in Grade four where no-one wants to move up? How is it best to encourage bands to move up? Of the grade four bands is there a few who could move up to grade three to make room for others and increase the competition in Grade three. I am not suggesting there is, only asking the question. Is the percentage breakdown similar from association to association? Our band is considering competing next year and we would be Grade 4. Will there be room for us?

[Bob]

I think I have a partial answer for you Mike, you have started a discussion in a subject where there are some interesting problems.

I am going to guess the problem is not what you suggest, and I think shortly this may be a completely different set of 'issues'..

One of the many goals of ANAPBA is to have a standard for grading that will result in solo and band competition grade assingments that are consistant over all of North America. That is not the case today, and it will be a while before the 'plan' is completely working but it will certainly help.

Another part of that plan (as I understand it) is that 'self promotions' will not occur either - each association will assign or promote / demote based upon the standard.

Now, as I understand it the ANAPBA is targeting both solo and band - and IMHO the problem does exist in both. I mean to suggest that a Grade x (band or solo), in one association may not be a Grade x in all, they may be Grade x-1 or Grade x+1.. BUT, even more significantly (to me at least), with the new 'plan' I would guess there will not be any clear sort of solo or band grade distribution curve.

In other words - (any) association could indeed continue to have a very large percentage of Grade 4 bands (heck, they could ALL be G4) - it will (one hopes) depend completely upon skill.. 50 bands in Grade 4, as an example, will not mean there should be ANY in grade 3 - skill alone will determine the grading..

Should be really interesting :humm:

Perhaps some of our members, with more knowledge of the ANAPBA plan could share more? I am not directly involved with ANAPBA, I have read some stuff from them however.. :D

[Kilroy]

To my understanding, WUSPBA does not take a very heavy hand at all in making bands move up. Therefore there most likely are bands which choose to stay where they are in an attempt to win.

Perhaps WUSPBA should take some of the top grade IV bands from the competitions of the year, including Pleasanton, and "encourage" them to move up.

kilroy

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Kilroy:
Perhaps WUSPBA should take some of the top grade IV bands from the competitions of the year, including Pleasanton, and "encourage" them to move up.
A grade 3 band is not a band that wins in grade 4 competitions. A grade 3 band is a band that plays at a grade 3 capability and competency.

To artificially move bands up from grade 4 based upon some perceived imbalance in the number of bands in grade 3 would be counter productive.

Historically in WUSPBA, changing grades is very challenging on bands, there are a number of bands that have moved up and are now struggling, or have moved back down. Ultimately this does more harm to bands than good. There are some notable exceptions but still the facts remain, that a lot of bands have moved to a higher grade when they weren't prepared for it.

[Matt Buckley_dup1]

For comparison, the EUSPBA breakdown is as follows:

Grade 5 - 95 bands
Grade 4 - 51 bands
Grade 3 - 16 bands
Grade 2 - 6 bands
Grade 1 - 1 band

Grade 3 constitutes a fairly high level of play, and most Grade 4 bands simply don't have the resources, time and talent to move up.

[Beth Foster]

Ok here's one for you. What does a solo or band do in a state like MT that is not sanctioned by any piping association? How does the ratings get recorded and managed? Is there someone out there keeping track of all the competition results at various games? Or am I having grand illusions?! :shrug:

[Bob]

Wow Matt, very interestng numbers - I love statistics :shrug:

(FWIW - in WUSPBA about 5 years ago I did the math on solo grades - Grade 4 was 50% of the total competitors for the year, Grade 3 was 25%, Grade 2 was 12%, Grade 1 was 6% - I think that sort of distribution was probably 'forced', and probably does not work (another discussion I think). I do not think that (forced distribution) would work in bands either - the goal is having a standard for each grade, as Drew mentions)

Beth - Usually a band will (or should) belong to a PB Association somewhere - and when joining they usually would be assigned a grade by that association.

If they have ever competed, they (the PBA) would know where the band should fit, and if the band has never competed, there will be some very clear reasons for whatever grade they end in (I mean, if they're not in G4 or 5, there will be some really clear reasons).

Over time, results will show where the band should be, just winning in a grade does not mean the band is in the wrong grade. Most of the better / larger PBA have judges that travel enough to know most of the bands - it is a stunningly small world at that level..

[Beth Foster]

Bob,
How do I find out what association to belong to? I have competed 3x's solo and our band competed this past August for the first time and came in 3rd out of 4 bands. Gr 4 of course. Is there a specific association for Montana?

[Bob]

Hi Beth,

I thought I remembered seeing a map on the ANAPBA site where all of North America was shown, with the range of each PBA - I just examined the whole ANAPBA site, and I can't find that map now.. (darn)..

I would guess that your area is not specifically 'in' a PBA's area - and in other cases like this I think bands and solo players just join the Association that would sanction the games they would be most likely to attend. The BCPA as an example has or had (I think) a band from Montana as a member.

I'm hoping others can supply good information (if mine is bad?)..

[Iain MacDonald]

The map of associations was taken off the ANAPBA site because it was not accurate.To-date, a new one has not been done. This is something that we will do, at least in list form.

I believe Montana falls in with the Mid-West Pipe Band Association? www.mwpba.org (http://www.mwpba.org) web page (http://www.mwpba.org)

[Lyle Walker]

I believe Montana falls in with the Mid-West Pipe Band Association? I believe Montanta would fall in the WUSPBA Inter-Mountain Branch. Drew McPheeters would probably know (Drew ?).. FWIW...Nebraska is in the Mid-West PBA's area per previous publications and we, in fact did join MWPBA although their website skips Nebr. entirely. I guess you can't believe everything you see on the internet. :cool:
cheers,
L.Walker

[Walter Innes]

A few WUSPBA bands go to the Worlds every year. They are usually bands that are doing quite well at home. They usually compete in IVB. Their success has been mixed. This suggests that by Scottish standards, not many WUSPBA grade IV bands are playing anywhere near a Scottish grade III level. Higher grade WUSPBA bands have performed respectably at the worlds. This suggests to me that by Bob's standard, WUSPBA has it about right.

[Beth Foster]

I was thinking Montana would be in the BCPA as we would travel to WA, ID, OR, CO, WY or Canada for games. Is there a contact for the WUSPBA Inter-mountain group?
We are trying to decide if we are going to continue competing and if so we need to have some set guidelines to help us move in the right direction. :thumb:
Thanks!

[Bruce]

Then there is the opposite end of the issue. What about bands who are doing poorly in their current grade? A couple of years ago the WUSPBA advisory committee approached a number of Grade III bands who had been performing poorly for the past couple of seasons and delicately recommnended they consider moving to Grade IV. As far as I know, none of the bands complied, including my own band. We took it as a wake up call and have since improved on our peformance. One band left WUSPBA to join another association where they still continue to perform poorly at competitions in their grade. Why don't associations take a larger role in promoting and demoting bands on their competetive performance? If a band has been competing in Grade III for over 10 years and rarely if ever has a podium finish, (unless of course there are three or less bands competing), do they deserve to stay in their current grade?

[Chris Hossack]

Hi Beth,

You can contact the WUSPBA President, Kevin Blandford through the website at www.wuspba.org (http://www.wuspba.org)

When ANAPBA was in its infancy and we were all trying to decide jurisdiction issues, there were several gray areas and yours was one of them. We decided at that time to allow bands in those gray areas to decide where they wanted to go. Having not been at the last ANAPBA conference, I'm not sure what ANAPBA's position is at this point. In addition to WUSPBA, you might want to look at Midwest, Alberta, BC Pipers and go with the one where you are most likely to appear the most often. All these associaton websites can be linked from Bob's main page or through the ANAPBA website at www.anapba.org (http://www.anapba.org)

Chris Hossack
Mesa Caledonian Pipe Band :wave:

Check out our website at www.mcpb.org (http://www.mcpb.org) :hatoff:

[Beth Foster]

Thanks Chris. I got a call today from Jeff Mann and he is checking on this for me.
Man I love this forum! Thank you all so much <img border="0" alt="[love]" title="" src="graemlins/love.gif" />

[Andrew Hagen]

I suppose that the SUSPBA is a prime example of a Pipe Band Association allowing bands to dictate the grade level in which they play.

In my opinion, if you compete, and you win, and you win, and you win - you have to go up - or compete no more. It's your Pipe Band Association's responsibility to see it through.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Beth Foster:
I was thinking Montana would be in the BCPA as we would travel to WA, ID, OR, CO, WY or Canada for games. Is there a contact for the WUSPBA Inter-mountain group?
We are trying to decide if we are going to continue competing and if so we need to have some set guidelines to help us move in the right direction. :thumb:
Thanks!Beth,

Unfortunately you live in an area, like those people and organizations in the Dakotas, West Texas, Oklahoma, the deep south, etc that is very far removed from the concentrations of bands in the major societies. Sadly these areas are underserved, not from a lack of desire, but more often than not a lack of resources.

In your case, when competition becomes a common thing for your band, if it isn't already, I'd come to some kind of decision as to which associations events you would like to attend, and approach that association.

If I were a games or festival wanting to santion a contest, I'd take the opposite approach, and determine which bands are likely to participate, and contact the association that the most bands belong to.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Walter Innes:
This suggests to me that by Bob's standard, WUSPBA has it about right.I'd agree with that sentiment. If anything we have a tendancy to move bands up too quickly.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Mike Miller:
I noticed in Pleasonton as probably most anyone who cared to ask about the grade four competition that while there were three grade one bands, five grade 2 bands and about the same for Grade three, there were 21 grade four bands. Lost in all the fuss is the fact that I think the Grade 4 competition this year in Pleasanton was very good. Probably about 8 bands within striking distance of the top 3 positions each day. Very, very competative.

Nice to see the kids from Oregon, only wish I'd had a chance to see them play, because they must be pretty darn good.

I did get to see the Chicago Cal, who won at Alma, and I think took 2nd or 3rd at Maxville, and they sure had a great, full sound.

And of course, the WUSPBA bands managed to hold their own as well.

It must have been difficult for the judges to make a decision.

[ratherbpiping]

Another consideration. If one or a few bands are dominating the grade Say seven bands of twenty one have a real chance at placing and the remaining 14 really have no chance at all, but it is recognized that none of the seven bands are qualified t move up based on the world or even North American Standard, what do you do. If this were in Grade three, the fourteen bands could go Grade 4 and probably create a problem in Grade 4 for the existing Grade four bands. I do agree that we should be rating bands on the World scale, but if some bands have a strangle hold on a grade What can you do to help the lesser band stay interested. Split Grade four into A &B at games that can support this? Encourage the better bands to play up at competitions that can support this? Introduce a grade 5?

Just some thoughts. Also, in reference to another thread on Band Size, A grade four band with a hired tuning ear, that can draw 15 pipes and 7 sides really has an advantage over a grade four band doing it on its own with a mere 8 pipes, and three sides. IT dose make entry level difficult for new bands.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Mike Miller:
Another consideration. If one or a few bands are dominating the grade Say seven bands of twenty one have a real chance at placing and the remaining 14 really have no chance at all, but it is recognized that none of the seven bands are qualified t move up based on the world or even North American Standard, what do you do. Why do anything? I mean, in any competative situation, there are always a certain group that have good shots at winning, and a certain group that have little chance. But when something good happens to that band that has no chance, isn't it thrilling?

If this were in Grade three, the fourteen bands could go Grade 4 and probably create a problem in Grade 4 for the existing Grade four bands. I don't agree with that at all. The question is are they playing at the grade 3 standard or not.

I do agree that we should be rating bands on the World scale, but if some bands have a strangle hold on a grade What can you do to help the lesser band stay interested. Split Grade four into A &B at games that can support this? Encourage the better bands to play up at competitions that can support this? Introduce a grade 5?And if there are 5 bands out of 20 dominating that grade do you further split them into grade 6? I mean, we have to be reasonable. Grade 5 may work for some associations like EUSPBA where there are a larger number of bands, but this all seems like we are trying to find a problem to fit a solution, not the other way around.

[Kilroy]

I think some good points have been made in this discussion and I just had a few questions and thoughts.

First off, in regards to bands traveling to worlds. I think how a band does at worlds does mean a certain amount, but I don't think you can judge a whole association and the level of their bands on one competition, even if it is worlds. Plus if I recall correctly there have been WUSPBA Bands, even at the lower levels, that have done very well there.

I agree that winning, or losing, competitions does not necesarily reflect what level a band is playing at.

My first question is this. Say you do have bands that are consistently in the prize list all season long. Doesn't it help an association to encourage these bands to attempt to take the step to the next level? By moving them up wouldn't they have the motivation and feedback to help them rise that extra half step when they are so close?

Second, should a band play on a level making them competitive for the prize list in the next grade before they are moved up, or could they compare to the bands out of the prize list? And is there different thinking on this between the different associations?

Third, why is the perception of grading so permanent? Couldn't bands be moved up or down with greater ease on a more regular basis? Perhaps even moved with the understanding that it is a trial basis for a few comps and if they do good/bad they will be moved back up/down.

Any thoughts?

Respectfully,

kilroy

[Mike Szarka]

Originally posted by Kilroy:
My first question is this. Say you do have bands that are consistently in the prize list all season long. Doesn't it help an association to encourage these bands to attempt to take the step to the next level? By moving them up wouldn't they have the motivation and feedback to help them rise that extra half step when they are so close?

Second, should a band play on a level making them competitive for the prize list in the next grade before they are moved up, or could they compare to the bands out of the prize list? And is there different thinking on this between the different associations?

Third, why is the perception of grading so permanent? Couldn't bands be moved up or down with greater ease on a more regular basis? Perhaps even moved with the understanding that it is a trial basis for a few comps and if they do good/bad they will be moved back up/down.

Any thoughts?
On the subject of forcing bands up, it can be very destructive to bands. The demands of the higher grade may kill an otherwise successful organization. The only time a band should be _forced_ up is when they are utterly dominant within their grade. This may or may not make them ready to take prizes in the grade above, that depends too much on who is already there. A band should be forced down when they are not playing at a standard which is representative of the grade.

As for bands moving up and down in grade all the time, that is tricky because of the "perception" and ego issues at play. If a band were downgraded, they might find themselves losing some of whatever talent they have because the players wish to compete in a particular grade. Similarly, a band moving up might HOPE to attract players at a higher level, but might instead lose players who weren't ready for the bigger challenge or who don't like being kicked around in the higher grade.

In the end, you can't just look at one season's performance in re-grading a band. You have to look at the strength and size of an organization, its consistency, its leadership, etc.

Mike

[Chris Hossack]

Originally posted by Mike Miller

Another consideration. If one or a few bands are dominating the grade Say seven bands of twenty one have a real chance at placing and the remaining 14 really have no chance at all, but it is recognized that none of the seven bands are qualified t move up based on the world or even North American Standard, what do you do. Get better or just take your lumps. :shrug: Look at Grade 1 in the 80's when the Polis were winning every year. SFU, FMM, Shotts and the 78th didn't just sit back and moan. They worked even harder and the result was that the musical standard was raised every year, as the Polis knew these bands were after them and they continued to improve, as well.

Mike wrote:

In the end, you can't just look at one season's performance in re-grading a band. You have to look at the strength and size of an organization, its consistency, its leadership, etc.
Amen Mike. There's way more to a decision like that than just how many times they happened to win prizes this year.

Chris Hossack :wave:
Mesa Caledonian Pipe Band

Check out our website at www.mcpb.org (http://www.mcpb.org) :hatoff:

[PCking]

Leadership?

There is an interesting discussion going on the old RMMB on this very topic.

Never thought that could happen there! ;-)

Ken

[Mike Szarka]

Originally posted by Ken Sherman:
Leadership?

There is an interesting discussion going on the old RMMB on this very topic.

Never thought that could happen there! ;-)

KenSo what have Mitchell, Royce and Bill Davidson got to say on the matter? Of course, eventually it is 100% guaranteed to boil down to Kron vs. Gibson and "I know what you did last summer..."

Mike

[Celtic Mitch]

Mike....I love ya baby! I can attest to the fact that moving in to a grade you are not ready for can kill a band. If the ego of a pipe major or a handful of individuals decide the bands fate for the coming season, you are spelling out disaster. Nothing, I repeat nothing, is more humiliating to a group of people than playing above your grade. Week after week, getting the wind taken out of your sails is the worst thing you can do to a bunch of people that have tried their best and shown up week after week knowing they were not up to snuff. Let the music board decide if you are really unsure of where you should be. Take their advice, they are seasoned professionals after all.

"Now remember everyone.....we are not here to compete, we are just here to entertain" NOT! :lol:

[Scott Russell]

Celtic Mitch says :"Now remember everyone.....we are not here to compete, we are just here to entertain" NOT! :lol:
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Well you know... :wave: