Judges opinions please ....playing the big notes in band competition

[JRM]

this is one for the judges out there, and I hope I put my question clearly...
I've heard it said many times by many people in the past, that it was acceptable for one or more players in a band contest to leave out some of the grace notes in the music that they have difficulty with or simply put, to improve the band performance by not playing something badly. I was wondering if there has been any change in the way judges feel about some players in a band contest, not playing all of the grace notes that everyone elseis playing. I mean not playing a wrong grace note, just not playing it at all. If you hear a doubling or a birl but happen to see a player not playing it, are they going to be marked down if you see it, :shrug:

[Celtic Mitch]

Here's something to add to the question above, what it the Pipe Major is the one leaving out stuff becuase it is too difficult for him? What if music was modified so that the whole band left out "big notes"? :shrug:

[JRM]

Sorry Mitch..but not the same thing. If the music is modified, and every one plays it, not the same question.

I am posing a valid question on a practice that used to be quite common in bands up to and including grade 1. Just wondering if it is still an acceptable practice for a band. :shrug:

[Celtic Mitch]

lineer, this is also a valid question. There was a grade 1 pipe major leaving out grace notes etc becuase of difficulty to that person and if the a judge noticed....what's his/her position on that.

[JRM]

Sorry Mitch. You're right. that part is the same as my question. My apologies.

Rest assured, I'm asking this for the benefit of all bands in all grades. In some grades, this issue can decide whether or not an individual is able to compete with their band or not just because they have difficulty with a particular movement. Is this allowed? :shrug:
Any judges have a personal / professional opinion?

[Chris Hamilton]

I think it's okay for a player to occasionally substitute an easier,COMPATIBLE movement if something is particularly difficult for him/her.

For instance, a G gracenote can blend in fine in a spot where the corps plays a C doubling, provided they're started at the same time. Conversely, a half-doubling on that same C will cause poor unison because (a) you aren't accenting the note the same as the others (the G gracenote provides a sharp distinct accent on the note), and (b) the D gracenote portion of the half-doubling will not be played concurrently with the D gracenote of the full C doubling, causing the next note to be one gracenote's length in front of the rest of the corps, and so on. Then they have to fudge somewhere else to make up the time lost by playing three or four half doublings instead of full doublings. The cumulative effect is rather disturbing.

If you think I'm crazy, try the first part of "Shoals of Herring" as an example. Have some players do full C doublings, and some do half C doublings ... you'll get the picture.

A High G gracenote is easiest, and is compatible with just about everything (doublings, grips, and so forth. If you've gotta sub something, use the G gracenote. However, sub a Low G gracenote to fudge a birl. I did that in 1999 when COW won the Worlds playing The Highland Wedding, Bogan Lochan, and The Smith of Chilliechassie -- my fingers were soaking wet and frozen through and through and that's all I could manage at full bore tempo. And no one was the wiser. I'm not advocating it, but there are times when it is expedient.

Chris

[Bruce Wright]

Originally posted by Chris Hamilton:
Conversely, a <span style="font-weight: bold">half-doubling on that same C will cause poor unison because (a) you aren't accenting the note the same as the others (the G gracenote provides a sharp distinct accent on the note), and (b) the D gracenote portion of the half-doubling will not be played concurrently with the D gracenote of the full C doubling, causing the next note to be one gracenote's length in front of the rest of the corps, and so on. Then they have to fudge somewhere else to make up the time lost by playing three or four half doublings instead of full doublings. The cumulative effect is rather disturbing.
</span>Chris,

I really don't follow what you're saying here. Clearly a G grace note will have a more compatible sound against a double C than will a half doubling. However I don't see how the effect is cumulative. In other words, looking at some possible time lines for the embellishments, say from an E to a double C followed by C and E eighth notes since you mention Shoals of Herring:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" style="height: 64px;"><pre> E g c d C E - full double C
E g C E - single G grace note
E c d C E - One way of playing the half double C
E c d C E - Another way of playing the half double C</pre></div></div>In this example the melody notes are in upper case and the grace notes in lower case. Clearly both of the ways of playing the half doubling will have more disunity with the rest of the corps than a single G grace note, but it seems to me that if the player has got the rhythm down correctly the final E melody notes will all be together and the problem won't cumulate as you seem to imply. Or am I missing something?

It's quite true that often technical problems go hand-in-hand with rhythmic problems because inexperienced or sloppy players are likely to have both kinds of problems, and in some cases (especially in fast passages) getting the proper rhythm may take a bit more technique than the player has - but I'm assuming here that the player can get the rhythm correctly and just has a problem with getting his or her fingers around a particular technical problem that's restricted to the missed doubling.

--Bruce

[Chris Hamilton]

Originally posted by Bruce Wright:

It's quite true that often technical problems go hand-in-hand with rhythmic problems because inexperienced or sloppy players are likely to have both kinds of problems,Boom! That's it. A piper who omits the G gracenote resulting in a half doubling (usually unknowingly) is not usually an advanced enough player to compensate by adding a bit more to the melody note to put themselves right smack back on the next beat. So they're always just that wee bit ahead. Multiply this across a pipe corps and you've got a lot of unison problems.

Your code example is great! However, I see it more like this in practice:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" style="height: 48px;"><pre> E g c d C E - full double C
E g C E - single G grace note
E c d C E - half double C</pre></div></div>Note how the E is slightly ahead of where it belongs (assuming this all fonted properly).

A gracenote isn't worth much, but it's worth enough to de-unify playing. Cumulative may have been overstating the case, but I've seen the effect countless times in solo and band sessions.

At the Grade 1 / Grade 2 level this is not an issue for the most part. You'll see it in Grade 5 and 4 bands, it's almost ubiquitous.

Chris

[Mike Szarka]

Originally posted by Celticmitch:
Here's something to add to the question above, what it the Pipe Major is the one leaving out stuff becuase it is too difficult for him? What if music was modified so that the whole band left out "big notes"? :shrug: Going back to Mitch's question, it is not uncommon to alter the setting for an entire band, even in Grade 1. Many embellishments sound fine at 68 BPM, but when a band tries to play them together at 80 BPM or above, it can really take away from the music, even if most of the players have pretty good hands. For example, I doubt that many bands play every doubling in a tune like Brigadier Cheape at Grade 1 band tempos. Playing all the embellishments that are written in the standard settings can actually disrupt the phrasing. No matter how crisp your doublings, they have to take a certain amount of time to play or they can't be heard at all, and it really depends a lot on tempo whether they add or detract from the music.

Mike

[Jim McGillivray]

Originally posted by Bruce Wright:
[QBI really don't follow what you're saying here. Clearly a G grace note will have a more compatible sound against a double C than will a half doubling. However I don't see how the effect is cumulative.

--Bruce[/QB]I think I have to agree with you here, Bruce, to some extent. The rhythm of a C half-doubling should be exactly the same as that of the C full doubling, but without the G gracenote. That's not to say people will actually play it that way. My explorations into technique, as I'm sure I've said ad nauseum, indicate that people have less trouble playing technique than they have playing it in rhythm, and that tunes are always being skewed out of shape as a result. So the unison problems Chris describes are more a result of people not playing correctly than simply a result of the gracenote being left off by some.

In any case, the end result is the same and I do agree that a band will play together better if everyone is playing the same gracenotes, whether those gracenotes are what's written or not. Certainly everyone playing a G gracenote rather than variations of the doubling would be preferable.

I disagree with something someone else said about even a Grade 1 band not being able to play all the technique written at Grade 1 tempos. No one told Bob Hardie that with Muirhead and Sons Ltd. Pipe Band in the 1960s, and I'm not sure anyone told Iain MacLellan that with Glasgow/Strathclyde Police in the 1980s either. I could name others. I have more than once been struck by the sterility of some top Grade 1 MSR performances due to the clear-cutting of almost all of the doublings -- and this by some very prominent bands. It's not something you necessarily notice until you've heard a top-notch band play all the gracenotes. The rich texture and rhythm it adds is quite striking and really brings the performance up to a remarkable level.

The Grade 1 bands I've played with have written a bit of technique out here and there, but only in phrases where unison has proven a problem. What I don't agree with is sitting down in October with the new music and immediately stripping out all the technique before a note has been played. To me it shows lack of imagination and ambition.

Cheers,
Jim

[Mike Szarka]

Originally posted by Jim McGillivray:

The Grade 1 bands I've played with have written a bit of technique out here and there, but only in phrases where unison has proven a problem. What I don't agree with is sitting down in October with the new music and immediately stripping out all the technique before a note has been played. To me it shows lack of imagination and ambition.
Jim:

As in most things in life, it is a matter of degree. You are right, of course, that it is easy to "sterilize" the music by taking out doublings, and the bands that can leave the most execution in without disrupting the flow or unison are doubly impressive to listen to.

Mike

[Matt Buckley_dup1]

Jim and Chris:

I've been following this thread with great interest. Your comments have been extremely detailed and helpful, and for up-and-coming bands like Catamount, the information is invaluable. Iain, Donald L. and I had a detailed discussion about this issue a couple of weeks ago, and your views confirm what, to me, appear to be the basic truths: (1) keep the gracenotes IN unless they are clearly beyond the capacity of the piper(s); (2) unison timing of the ornaments is vital; and
(3) it's ok, on a piper-by-piper basis, to somewhat simplify, if necessary, the score to achieve unison.

Thanks Jim and Chris !! Great thread !!

[JRM]

Great comments and advice from everybody. There is just one important point left out ( I think). Would a band be penalized on a score sheet if a judge saw a player not playing a particular movement ( that everyone else is playing), but didn't notice any auditory differences? :shrug:

Would it help to say I don't play in a band currently, run a band or have any vested interest in the answer other than to increase the enjoyment factor for all people involved in bands. BUT I wouldn't want a band to suffer on the contest field needlessly. It would be good for them to know this up front before hitting the circle what they can be penalized for.

[Chris Hamilton]

Originally posted by lineer:
Would a band be penalized on a score sheet if a judge saw a player not playing a particular movement (that everyone else is playing), but didn't notice any auditory differences? :shrug: Speaking for myself, I don't look carefully at individual pipers when I'm judging. I'm busy listening and writing.

I have looked at pipers to help determine if a particular person was playing or faking or frozen in the headlights, but it's rare that I have cause to visually scrutinize a bandsman. And I would only bother to look if I was tipped off by some anomaly in the sound. The sound is what's important.

So, in short, I very much doubt most judges would notice or care. If the band sound is good, then it's good.

Chris

[John Bottomley]

I'm kinda too busy listening to be scrutinizing an individual player, but frankly, if you don't hear it, then it's fine. As Jim pointed out, the slash and burn system of technique elimination is a different story, but if one or two players have to simplify a bit of technique to achieve unison, then that's the way to go.

[Jim McGillivray]

Originally posted by Chris Hamilton:
[QUOTE]
So, in short, I very much doubt most judges would notice or care. If the band sound is good, then it's good.

ChrisI agree with Chris. The only time I ever focus on an individual player is if I look up and see someone who looks like they are struggling. You many not hear a problem from the other side of the band, but often if you stroll over to where they are tone and unison issues will come to the fore. But a gracenote here and there? Never crosses my mind.

Jim

[The Axeman]

So now we know that some piping judges are focused on the group performance. What percentage on their judging result is actualy awarded to Blowing and Tone?? The reason I ask this is over the many years we have all listened to the worlds CD's it's not always the band that play's best that wins but the band that has the best sounding pipe section.

Off Topic a little more but valid question. I have played in many competitions where the piping judge was marking ensemble. When the band results come through at the end of the day. You review the ensemble sheet and the piping judge has done nothing but hammer the pipesection but mentiond very little about band ensembe,thus giving a band 3 piping judges on the field during a performance. It also brings up the questions??
Perhaps the Judging system needs to educate it's judges better on ensemble?? What is the criteria of an emsemble judge?? How much about drumming &amp; piping should an ensemble judge know?? How should the split of the ensemble mark be. 33 % Side Drumming 33% Mid-Section 34% piping????

Just a question.

I bet this has happened to many bands on a weekly basis where piping is everything and the remainder of the performance did not matter, even if the drum section played amazing, both groups were very tight togeather and the band timming was awsome. Even if the musical ensemble of the band was superior to it's competition.

I look forward to all who judge and your reply.

Thankyou
THE AXEMAN ( A person who cuts down trees for a living)?????

[DVMPiper]

In my limited experience of only watching band competitions, I have noticed that judges who are trying to listen to the sound rather than picking out individual pipers who may be having trouble always walk around either with their heads down, so they can't look at the players, or heads up looking off in the distance, again trying to focus on tone and execution rather than singling out individuals. The only time I ever saw them focus on a player was when there seemed to be a bobble in the playing. Their attention was brought to the players, I think more for making notes about where the bobble happened and to make an attempt to give good feedback for the score sheet rather than to hammer the person who messed up. I guess those who try to judge both to judge the competition fairly and to give the bands good comments about their performance, because so many bands use them to improve their future playing and the judges know this.

Bryan

[Chris Hamilton]

Originally posted by The Axeman:
So now we know that some piping judges are focused on the group performance. What percentage on their judging result is actualy awarded to Blowing and Tone?? The reason I ask this is over the many years we have all listened to the worlds CD's it's not always the band that play's best that wins but the band that has the best sounding pipe section.I can't give you a hard and fast percentage. My only answer is "It depends." It varies from band to band and contest to contest. I try to balance all the elements - tonal quality, tuning, expression, execution, musicality, and so forth. In some cases the band with the best tone may not win the day. Another day and they might. You have to look at the overall effect and the other entrants' performances to see how much or how little a good sound carries the day.

You may find that surprising from a known "Tone Guy". However, any judge has to be aware of their own biases and tendencies and try to adjudicate objectively in spite of them.

Chris

[Chris Hossack]

There is no hard and fast rule on this, but when I'm judging piping, my personal breakdown of points in its simplest terms is sound: 30 points, execution: 30 points, expression or musicality: 40 points. There are subcategories in each section that I look at, but that's the crux. So a band that's musical and has good sound can end up with a lot of points. That's essentially true when I'm judging ensemble, as well but then I'm looking at these categories from the standpoint of the total musical presentation.

Years ago in my first stint as WUSPBA President, we tried an experiment at the old Santa Rosa games. We added a "shadow judge" who was the director of one of the university marching bands in the Bay area. His results didn't "count" of course. We just asked him to rank the bands as he thought they should fall and make any comments he thought appropriate. Surprisingly -- or perhaps not -- this band director's rankings coincided with the top five placings in EVERY grade. His comments were more from an "ensemble" standpoint and very astute -- in a number of cases, mirroring those from the ensemble judge (most often focusing on the integration, balance and blend of sound between the pipes and drums). :thumb:

We've all heard those who think no one but us pipe band people know whether a pipe band plays well or not. But, this proved to me that music is music and it doesn't take a Scottish pipe band judge to know the difference.

Chris Hossack :wave:
Mesa Caledonian Pipe Band

Check out our website at www.mcpb.org (http://www.mcpb.org) :hatoff: