Who am I?

[Ken MacKenzie]

As moderator of this forum, I should introduce myself with a bit of history. I have been piping for 48 years and done so all across Canada. Most of the time I played in one or another of three different Canadian Highland Regiments but now am playing solo. Mainly because of the lack of a band in the area I now reside.
I compete usually in the Adult grade of the BCPA but occasionally in Gr.2 just to get a dose of reality. My competition career began only two years ago and is a direct result of the lack of a band.
I am fortunate to have one of the finest piping instuctors there is, Jack Lee, helping me correct a lifetime of self taught technique and while I will never reach the big time, I am thoroughly enjoying the ride.
____________

As a beginning subject for discussion, I have always been curious as to why pipers seems to disappear after they reach the age that they leave High School and go on to University or take up life in general.
A quick look around any games will show that while teenage pipers abound, adult pipers seem to be thin on the ground. By the number young players that come along each season and eventually reach 21 or some other arbitrary age it would seem that there should be an over abundance of active mature pipers out there but this is evidently not the case.
So, what happens? Life? Is this what puts a stop to all these piping careers? Why? I would think that for someone to have played through their teen years, all the tough stuff would be behind them. Why aren't there more old guys like me around who are willing to get up and play at the drop of a hat or uncapping of a beer?

Ken

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Ken MacKenzie ]

[firecap]

We have much the same problem. I have helped many younger people begin the journey to piping and they approach it with great zeal. After struggling through the basic tutor book and finally getting "it", i.e. understanding things like expression and tempo and interpretation, they slowly fade out. This makes me wonder why they invested the time/money. I played several woodwinds throughtout school. They cost me nothing (school instruments) and now I don't miss it. But I would never give up piping. I have too much of my own money and time wrapped up in it.

Just my $.02

[DVMPiper]

I don't know about anyone else, but being a piper that started late, ie at age 28, I can't comment on the fading out of young pipers. I just started my first year as a veterinary student and am finding it hard to just keep up with my piping, much less trying to compete or take lessons or anything else. I am lucky to pick up a new tune every few weeks. That may be the same predicament as college age pipers. When you get out into the wide world, other things may supplant your piping. It is up to the piper to keep up, I guess.

[Don MacPherson]

I started very casually at about age 35, then seriously two years ago at 41. I had always "meant to" learn, but it was only due to a bold "dare" that I actually got serious. (I promised someone I'd play for an event, which given a few years on the PC and a solid musical training throughout my youth, really wasn't out of the realm of possibility.) Anyway, here I am, pretty much self taught (with periodic checks with a couple of instructors). In retrospect, I can see why the priorities of family, career, etc. can put a crimp on playing. I have found that, like anything, success promotes interest, and success is not easy without making practice and playing part of your daily "culture".

[Mike Williams]

Yeah...I understand about starting the pipes later in life,but have also been witness to the turn-over of younger pipers as they go off to school,life et all...I know that i had always wanted to pipe,probably since my early teens,but din't have access (or so i thought) to tuition.when all along it was across the bridge from me (shriners pipeband) then when i finally hooked up with those guys it launched my interest...and to be honest,i have every intention of paying them back of they're time and help getting ME started.I'm 41 now,and have a VERY buisy career,but still get in an hour every morning,and about (at least) an hour each night.I had looked for private tuition from a guy who told me,if i teach you,you have to agree NOT to join a "pipeband" (!?) this is the same guy who told me if i didn't stop curling my one finger on the practice chanter he would "cut-it-off"Ha,Ha!!kinda makes you search around before getting involved with other pipers or groups ya know??and if your young,you think..."I don't need them" to enjoy my hobby....

[Mitch Man]

Originally posted by Ken MacKenzie:
As a beginning subject for discussion, I have always been curious as to why pipers seems to disappear after they reach the age that they leave High School and go on to University or take up life in general.
So, what happens? Life? Is this what puts a stop to all these piping careers? Why?

I think you answered your own question there Ken!

As one who did this exact same thing, I became
interested in a number of different things and
piping took a back stage! While I did keep
my hand in it by playing with some band's, my
attitude about piping was very lax!

College, Marriage and Family are a big obstacle
to a piping career too! Once I got rid of all
those items, my piping improved significantly! :wink:

JM

[Connie B]

Hi,

Thanks for moderating this forum. I just found it and am really looking forward to discussions.

When I started in my forties, I was surprised to not see many other players my age, and very few beginners. I have since found out that many people play privately but don't have time for much more than that - real life and all.

Connie

[Matt Buckley]

Let me suggest a few reasons inherent in the competition system itself which may contribute to
the problem. First, however, a disclaimer. In
2001 I have, on balance, very much enjoyed competing and found the system to be fair. With a few exceptions, I was rewarded when I did well, and was not rewarded when I didnt do well. I began medalling at the end of the season, and plan to continue competiting in 2002. Having said this, I would offer the following:

Oh, and one more thing - I'm a professional
(attorney), married, and very busy, and I still
find the time to compete.

1. Adults are generally quite focused on, and
knowledgable about, their interests in piping. For example, I am far more interested in pibroch and traditional dance music than I am in 2/4 competition marches. Yet, in the EUSPBA, adults entering the system must play ground only in the pibroch, and the 2/4 event. Because I've done well in the pibroch event in this my first year of competing, I'm frustrated that I won't have an outlet until Grade III for the full pibroch. It's unfortunate that folks interested in pibroch, or any other focus, can't compete separately at a higher level in a particular category.

2. The competition system is focused on a particular style of piping, i.e. standard military
style developed over the past century. For those
of us interested in different styles, e.g. gaelic
dance piping, Cape Breton piping, etc., we must
find an outlet other than the current competition system.

3. Adults serious about piping are, generally,
perceptive and knowledgable about the strengths
and weaknesses of themselves and those doing the judging. My experience is that the majority of judges are quite good, quite professional and quite helpful, making for an enjoyable experience overall. However, there are a few judges which should not be judging for many reasons, including bias or generally perceived bias, and this knowledge makes it tough for adults to take seriously judges in this small category. It is unfortunate that most competition associations do not offer a means of judging the judges, e.g. annual written review sheets from competitors. A solid review system allowing competitors input would, in my opinion, result in increased perception of integrity in the system, thereby attracting more adults.

4. The upgrade system is a mystery, therefore
frustrating to competing adults. Clear standards
in this regard would help attract adults.

Understand that although the above views are my
own, I've spoken with countless adult on the
issue, and I know many of my views are widely
shared.

Enough for now. I could type for hours on this
one.

Matt

[Ed Via]

First, Hi Ken and thanks for taking on the responsibility of moderating :*)

Why do the younguns fade from the scene after a time? Some of it may have to do with boredom, frankly. My son started playing at age 7 and did very well in solo competition when he started competing. He's now 13 and in Gr II, but the "fire is fading," at least in terms of solo competing. He still is quite active in a ceilidh band he plays with, but the solo competition scene has grown kind of stale, at least for him. It might be different if we lived in an area that was more of a piping hotbed, I don't know. But at age 13 he's now into school sports, girls, etc etc. and competitive piping has just moved to the back burner, at least for now. Hopefully he'll regain the fire when he's done with school sports, but for now there's just a lot of other distractions.

[John Brock]

Ed:
I'd guess that as long as you stick with it, Jack will too. He may bail on the competing for a while but as long as you play, it will always be something he can do with his dad. Think of it as Highland Baseball!
JB

[Ed Via]

Hey there Mr. Brock, nice to see you over here amongst the civilized folk :) Actually I think as long as the ceilidh band remains active he'll always have a reason to keep playing.

[Derrick Young]

I too started late in life in Piping terms (25). And then had to put it down for a umber of years. It was a combination of things for me at that time. 1) Did not think a pipe band wold take on a student so I was paying private tutors constantly. 2)Got married soon aftger starting to play and priorities shifted. 3)We had our first child. 4)my career was starting to take off and required more from me.
Last year (9 years later)I got back into it. My kids are at the age now where they make fun of my playing. My career is at a point where I can tell the difference between work and life.
Another reason is that no matter what I have heard people say say about the GHB being a cheap instrument by comparison, I have to disagree. As a whole this hobby has probably cost me 6-8K over the last year. This is includes my pipes, kilt/shoes/sporran/jacket...,practive chanter, reeds that I have recked trying to make them easier to blow, trips to hihgland games/clinics and so on. When I think of the economic position I was in at 25 there was not way I could have done that.

Derrick

[Chris Hamilton]

Originally posted by Matt Buckley:
...
It is unfortunate that most competition associations do not offer a means of judging the judges, e.g. annual written review sheets from competitors. A solid review system allowing competitors input would, in my opinion, result in increased perception of integrity in the system, thereby attracting more adults ...


Hi Matt,

As a judge, I'd concur with that statement. Good honest evaluation and critique can help judges too, and I for one would welcome input from those I've judged.

Chris

[Sunwolfe]

Hail Piping Kith and Kin,

I started learning PC at around age 20 and, after many, many frustrating false starts, stops and years of outright hiatus, at 38 I returned in earnest mentally kicking myself for ever loosing focus. At the present age of 40, I more than ever appreciate the gravity and cost this loss of time has resulted in. As I look at the distractions, however, University, career establishment, divorce and playin' Mr. Mom, the hiatus makes sense. As many above have hinted at and pointed out, with so many demanding and distracting factors, I was just too bloody busy to indulge.

Since my final and last return, I've wondered about pipers who come to the art of Piod in advanced years; those whom I refer to as, “pipers who came of age too late” (the title of Piobaireachd I fully intend to compose one day;-), and how they feel in the modern and youngster-dominated world that piping is today. In reference to Ken McKenzie comment, “…adult pipers seem to be thin on the ground” I offer a couple of observations for discussion and comment by the older set. BTW, I will be using the word “seems” a lot as these observations are purely my own and thus subject to error;-).

At the College of Piping's Summer School in Carlsbad, I had a most positive experience this year. I grew as a piper and a musician. The Institute of Piping's certification program offered a set of goals that got me excited about my piping and ambitious to pursue them. The tuition at the college was top notch and the knowledge of its instructors formidable, but I couldn't help but notice how my instructors seemed to favor the younger crew, distributing praise and bolstering incentive, over the older. While included and worked with, those who had come to piping late in their lives were still, you could tell, treated quickly with less consideration and care, almost as if the instructors felt their time to be better spent with the younger and more talented. Please understand this is NOT an indictment against my instructors at the College…they were perfect gentlemen more than willing to share their awesome experience and deep expertise at the drop of a hat. I feel privileged to have had their tuition and look forward to more next year. Still, the favoritism seemed apparent.

The venue for the mature piper, especially those who “came of age too late,” seems rather too limited to inspire the older crowd to thickin' up. Consider the competition circuit. Experienced teachers and P/Ms at times show their greatest excitement over the young because they catch on so quickly. It is easy to praise and laud their achievements, imagining how their addition to the band will effect its competition possibilities. This excitement seems not to extend to the older newbie for whom the learning curve is steeper, the hands aren't as fast and crotchety stubbornness born of “being around the block a time or two” may be a factor. It can be hard to want to stick around when the powers-that-be cater to the young in the band without equal consideration for the old. I am NOT saying that older newbie pipers are consciously slighted, only overlooked due to the predictable character of human nature.

The solo competitions present a related obstacle. Dominated by the young, whose talented fingers fly over tunes where ours fear to tread, the older piper wonders, “what's the use of competing?” And while the experience of competition, win or loose, may be priceless, without at least a slight possibility of a medal to spice the experience, especially considering those judges who favor the young, why should the older piper compete?

Piobaireachd competitions, where maturity and appreciation season the performance, traditionally offer older pipers a venue to excel in. This however is no longer true as anyone who reads “Piping Times” or “The Voice” can attest. At the last Piobaireachd competition I went to in Pleasanton, the young far outnumbered the old and so went the prize. Of course the great competitions in Scotland and else where, such as the Dan Reed Memorial in CA, are still dominated by middle age pipers, but as a rule these are pipers who took up piob when very young and have been at it ever since.

It is very hard to compete against talented young fingers. On the surface it seems that the competition world favors the young. I wonder if it might not be more encouraging to offer categories in grade competitions that were more age conscious. If I knew I was competing against pipers of like skill as well as experience, I might find competition as a whole more appealing and thus stick around in a more participatory fashion. I find it paradoxical that while it is the young who seem to dominate the surface world of piping, it is the old who finance it by buying every sort of gewgaw and newfangled reed, pipe bag, drone stopper, magic brew or potion that comes on the market. Take a look at the students in any piping college or seminar offered round the country and ask yourself what age group is financing the tuition…LOL!

Thanks for the soapbox to stand on. Hats off to Bob and all the moderators for these forums; they are SO refreshing after the RMMB “news” group drivel. Thoughts, comments, additions or stern reprimands appreciated.

Yours Aye,

Sunwolfe
A Piper Who Come of Age Too Late;-)

[Anauldpiper]

I find this interesting as well. I came to the pipes VERY late (50), ans I too watch those flying young fingers with interest (and envy). I think the pattern of "fade out" is likely to be much like that of many other activities. The young quickly establish a pecking order, and the competition helps. Most are in a band, or around piping friends.
As we grow older, inevitably some realize they will never be great, and lose incentive to practice, some just don't have enough time in the day, and some just burn out. It seems to me that a retention rate of 10% or so is really reasonable for most activites. In addition, it is probably hard to practice living in a dorm or small apartment. Then the demands of a young family quickly get in the way, and before you know it, you'r in your thirties, and other events, like golf, or bridge, etc. use up your free time
Adult pipers, on the other hand, while perhaps less favored with ability to learn, are certainly motivated by desire to play, and should have learned to manage their time better. They have already made the decision that this is an activity that seems worth the time. We probably shouldn't be looking to make adult learners great, but they should be competent.
It seems to me that the real question is: Why don't we recapture more of the youngsters who "Take a break" as they become older? Is the problem that of creating an attractive return venue, "easing back in", as it were? If so, what is better, and how is it best done?

[Scott]

Sounds like my story is more common than I thought. I had always meant to learn pipes, my Great Grandfather played and seeing his pictures in full military regalia with his pipes was amazing to me. My Father never played but woke us up every Sunday with pipe band recordings and took us to all kinds of games and performances (Black Watch). So finally 2 years ago at the age of 38 I grabbed my opportunity. A local pipe band started a learn bagpipes class in our community. After the initial course the band asked if I wanted to continue and of course I did. I am still plugging away to this day and have no intention of stopping. But as others have said, I don't think I could have pursued this earlier due to cost and priorities. Unfortunately I have 40 year old fingers that do not always cooperate but I get by.

[DVMPiper]

I have to agree with Sunwolfe and his post. Although I am a younger Older? piper, I am intimidated by the skill evidenced by the younger crowd of pipers. With the effortless ease to which they produce the most marvelous gracings and doublings and such, they far outreach my meager attempts at the same. I just wish I had gotten into piping at a much earlier age. But, as with most adult new pipers, I have come at the craft with more diligence and stubborn cussidness and have been able to achieve some skill. My wife commented the other day that I was lazy with somethings, but when it came to my pipes and piping, I was concerted and focused. Skill for diligence, a trade-off or a symbiotic relationship. We'll see.

[Mitch Man]

Producing good grace notes can be accomplished
at any age! With good technique it is easy!

Finger stiffness has nothing to do with moving
the hands quickly, it's paying attention to
detail and putting in the work that it makes
it look easy for these players!

I have heard pipers who were in their 70's
play just a quickly as the young ones, but with
more control and expression they sounded polished
The young ones are in most cases irratic!

Technique is the answer!

JM

[Rick]

Guess I'll add my bit in here as well. I picked up an appreciation for pipe music from my father. He never played, but rarely missed a chance to listen to it. I always thought about learning, but never seemed to have the time. A little more than a year ago, just shy of my 50th birhday, I decided to go for it. My wife decided I must be serious about it when I gave up a 36 year smoking habit to start piping. Of course I started off hind end foremost, and wound up with a set of the dreaded "Pakistani Pipes" (an error I've since recitfied). Now, with the assistance of a good instructor and a bit of practice time, I'm enjoying myself, and making decent progress (according to my instructor).
I tend to agree with some of the earlier posters, there are certain advantages to starting later in life. Just speaking for myself, I seem to be more in control of my time, and more certain of what I want to do than I was 30 years ago. Definitely more stable financially. All this makes it easier to invest the time and money neccessary to piping. While the kids are grown and gone, the majority of the grandkids live locally so I frequently have to schedule practice around nap time, but that's a minor inconvenience.
I'm not in a band, nor do I anticipate joining one. I don't see entering any competiions either. I play strictly for my own (and others) enjoyment. My bride and I participate in Rendezvous and other types of Living History events. I've already taken the pipes to one event, where my limited repetoire was well received. I can see playing the pipes being part of the enjoyment of these events in the future, but beyond that, its' strictly for personal pleasure.
Believe I've nattered on long enough. I'm looking forward to an interesting exchange of information on this forum

[Gary Krueger]

It's nice to see Kenton and some of the others here. I give a thumbnail scetch of my piping.

1. I was out of work at age 55 and looking for something to fill in time. No jobs were forthcoming so I began to think about adding to my education, perhaps finishing off my BS in Computer Science. Anyway, there...in the community college catalogue was Beginning Bagpipe.
I went bought a chanter from the instructor (Bob Lilly) and started up. Within just a few months I secured a job and couldn't keep up with the classes at night.

2. Worked and kicked around various instructors from time to time, until I celebrated my 25th Anniversary of my Ordination. I hired a piper who in the short of it, got me hooked up with a band here in the Detroit area. The Red Thistle Pipes and Drums. Bruce Burt, Sr. was the PM at the time. Went to practice and did the group learning thing for a year...got little or no where.

3. Bruce took me on as a student, began to progess, nicely...got my first set of pipes.. (Frankensteins - they were assembled from various parts.) Didn't sound bad, I was told that the drones sounded good. Bruce retired and began to look to Florida as retirement home for the winter. By this time I was hooked.

4. Found Tom Robinson from Forest Ontario. A good piper and great teacher. He and I just hit it off. I am making good progress according to him and I hope to compete in Gr 5 (PPBSO) or Sr. Novice (EUSPBA) or maybe it's the other way around I don't know.

I just know that I have spoken to Dave Clark a former Champion who lives just about 10 miles from me in Algonac MI. He just doesn't want to pipe right now for a lot of reasons. One being...burn out from the youth years of the grind of competition.

Well, I AM going to compete. If for no other reason than to show the Drum Major that "I'm not too old to compete."

:rolleyes:

[Gary Krueger]

Sorry I missed the 2nd page.

Remember that Age and deviousness will always overcome youth and energy.

Truly, My instructor stresses that it isn't how fast you play the doublings etc. It's how well that counts. I often think I am just poking along in a tune (true while I am learning it) but as I begin to play it I am up to speed or at least close to it. It is one of the advantages of being in solo competition...you just keep up with yourself. At age 60, I don't think I'll let any other piper intimidate me. I respect those who play more proficently, but I am doing this just for me and the love of piping.

[michael gunn]

i started piping at 16. my teacher was of the "military" mind-set, former cadet & brit army piper, and to be honest, he frequently took some getting along with. however, i had two advantages: the first was that i really took to the pipes (bad genetic material, perhaps,) and the second was that most of the band at the time were 14-18 year-olds, so there was a pretty solid peer group in place. into that, we were permitted our share of hell-raising at the appropriate times and to the appropriate extent. i was with that band the better part of the last 30 years, with a few intervening leaves-of-absence, for school and for life's little backhands. i just retired from the band after my third stint as PM (14 of the last 18 years.) i'm hoping, after a short vacation, to start back into solo competition, while keeping my hand in playing pipes in a celtic folk group & teaching privately.
you've got to love this enough to take it on completely, plan your spare time & vacation around it, stay involved with it. young pipers these days have a lot of other things they can get into, not to mention the amount of crap bombarding them with what they "ought to" or "deserve to" be doing. how to keep them in depends a lot on what got them there in the first place. beyond that, they need to be brought along and encouraged until it becomes a vital part of their "soul" :eek: (oh, my...stop me now!) the attrition rate is still high--always will be, else we few, we happy few should be up to our chins in pipers. y'gotta wanna!

mg

[Jeff Wolf]

Although not the oldest "new guy" here, I started 7 months ago at the age of 45. My reasons were many and would bore you as badly as pictures of my kids, so here's the Reader's Digest version. I played trumpet and guitar as a pre-teen and teenager, but like so many, I couldn't find a place for music in my life as I grew up. Something had to give. I lacked passion for the trumpet, and guitar was just too hard to learn, too hard to carry around. The pipes and their music possess the romance and uniqueness that appeals to an adult that a younger person may not appreciate. It's a stand-alone instrument, when you want that, as well as the most social. What more could an old guy want?

As for the "age thing", I refuse to accept that I cannot be a great piper because of my age. I will be challenged to find all the playing time I want, but all the desire and passion required to excel is present and accounted for. What I lack in pure reflex I think I can make up with intelligent practice and pure determination. With practice, people our age can develop and maintain our reflexes at levels we enjoyed in our late teens and twenties for many more years - just requires a few more aspirin.

Raw talent is all that will fall outside the span of my control. I may lack the god-given talent to make people want to give up their Jack Lee/Jim McGillivray/Barry Shears CDs, but I will not stop improving until I have wrung out every last bit of what talent I do have, and am satisfied with my accomplishments.

As for competition, I can understand why so many older folks stay away, now that I've had a closer look. I may or may not compete. I find the egos daunting, honestly. As a Navy pilot, I have worked and survived in the most competitive of environments, and thought I knew all there was to know about the human ego. I've learned otherwise! So far, it has been amusing. So far. :eek:

[Sidebar - To round out the picture, some of the finest and most honorable human beings I have ever met are pipers, too. These people are very comfortable in their abilities, and do not look for reassurance of their own worth in the measurement of others. They see someone trying to learn a heritage they love, and think only to help and encourage. Something happens when you start assigning rankings to people, assigning subjective grades to their efforts. Sometimes they start to view it as an absolute measure of their actual worth as a person - good or bad. The true measure of a man or woman, boy or girl, is not to be found in their ability to pipe. Hopefully this revelation is no one's epiphany, doesn't shock or intimidate anyone :p ].

But in any event, I will support this heritage to the best of my ability, and I refuse to dishonor it - even if it means never playing anywhere but my own basement. I'll enjoy every minute of it. I wish I 'd come to it sooner, but as a younger person I might not have appreciated the nuances of piping that will make its learning worth the trip at this point in my life. But be careful with those labels. I'm a new piper. Not "new". :)