Adult Piping Category

[Bob Budesa]

I was just wondering how many adult pipers (people who have real jobs, got started late, have kids and other committments) are too intimidated to compete with younger, lightning-fingered teen-agers, and therefore don't enter competitions? Would you enter if there were fields where you played against 'your own kind', in other words, age-graded adult pipers?

It was tough, not to mention discouraging, to race bikes against people 20-30 years my junior, and get shelled every time. The same holds true in the piping world. I think it would be more encouraging to older, late-starting players to compete in categories where everyone is more or less equal (age, ability, etc).

I just thought I'd start a conversation and get some thoughts before talking to games promoters. Maybe I'm way off base. I think if there were age-graded adult fields (30-39, 40-49, 50-59, etc), a promotor would get more entries. All it would take would be a few more medals, and you're there. Ok, maybe one more adjudicator.

N'est pas?

PS - I think my definition of 'adult piper' is what they had in mind when they created this category. Let me know if I'm wrong.

[Drew McPheeters]

I'm a drummer, so I hope you don't mind my intrusion. I would say the same points you make apply to us as well.

Originally posted by Bob Budesa:
I was just wondering how many adult pipers (people who have real jobs, got started late, have kids and other committments) are too intimidated to compete with younger, lightning-fingered teen-agers, and therefore don't enter competitions? Would you enter if there were fields where you played against 'your own kind', in other words, age-graded adult pipers?I have never liked the idea of age based divisions in piping/drumming competitions for the most part.

The judge are supposed to consider the playing, not the competitors. Sure I know some judges may have a bias towards younger players. That is a judging problem, not a problem with the competition.

In actuality, you are only competing against yourself. The mistakes you make aren't influenced by the competitors.

If it is an ego, thing, I would suggest that a person should consider an activity which isn't competative.

It was tough, not to mention discouraging, to race bikes against people 20-30 years my junior, and get shelled every time.Well, I think this is a different circumstance. Physiological differences make age division in athletic events a little more logical. I know there is a physical element to piping and drumming, but this isn't an athletic competition.

The same holds true in the piping world. I think it would be more encouraging to older, late-starting players to compete in categories where everyone is more or less equal (age, ability, etc).?We already break the players up by ability. That's why there are different grades. As far as age goes, would you also want age divisions for all grade levels? Should 40-45 year old grade 3 pipers have their own division? Would the requisite skill level be comparable? If not, why call them grade 3? If so, haven't we just determined that older plaers aren't necessarily at a competative disadvantage against younger players.

Or do we have an age open graded division of grade 4-professional, and seperate age divisions? In which case some guy that's been playing for ever could enter the age division and clean up. This would happen again, and people would get discouraged, and stop competing, and we are right back to where we are.

I just thought I'd start a conversation and get some thoughts before talking to games promoters. Maybe I'm way off base. I think if there were age-graded adult fields (30-39, 40-49, 50-59, etc), a promotor would get more entries. All it would take would be a few more medals, and you're there. Ok, maybe one more adjudicator.

N'est pas?

PS - I think my definition of 'adult piper' is what they had in mind when they created this category. Let me know if I'm wrong.Why stop there? Why not under 12, 13-16, 17 -18, 18-21? You could get carried away with this stuff. Eventually you could end up with 3 players in each category, everyone gets a medal, noone is disappointed, noone feels the urge to get better.

[Jan]

I'm not for the age divisions as described in the first post but I would like to see the EUSPBA raise the grade 4 youth cut off from 18 to 25 or 28. The main reason is not so much the speed of the younger players but the fact that the over 18 catagory is very crowded, especially at the larger games. I have noticed games that had 20 or more over 18 grade 4 players yet only 5 or so under 18. By raising the age from 18 to a higher age, more competitors would be in the younger group and less in the older. I think that would even out the field a little more.

I agree with Drew in that we should be competing against ourselves in order to improve and reach higher levels of skill. Competition is one way to gage our own improvement. Sure its nice to get medals and prizes but in the long run, what does it really matter as long as we improve our playing?

Jan

[Bob]

Hi Bob,

I'm guessing in your area of the piping world the Adult class does not exist? Or is it just uncommon out there?

Here in the Pacific Northwest we have what I think is a great solution to exactly the problem I think you're addressing. We have, at most games, an Adult class -
(BTW - our season long Grand Aggregate Winner for 2002 in the Adult class is once again our moderator here - Ken - off topic, but I wanted to brag for him :D )

Adults here (BCPipers events I mean) do not have to compete in the adult class, they can choose to go into a Graded class - and some do - but they can't (I believe?) do both - Adult class and Graded..

Here if we see 150 solo competitors at a games, 5 or so will be in the adult class, and they (the Adult class players I mean) compete at what I would suggest is something near a Grade 2 solo level (not at all a beginner class).. My guess is the average age of competitors is 14-15? - a very young group - and the Adult class is I believe quite a good thing in encouraging the 'older' guys to come out and play - exactly as you mention, but it is not (at least here) something getting older beginners and G4 players off the sidelines. In fact, in some cases I know it does just the opposite - the kids are so young, and the adults are so good.. some are discouraged from competiting (but we work on 'em :bleh: - but I do think there are good things that can come from some age separation.. However - the local piping scene is really a big determining factor as to what form it could take.. Clearly not a 'one solution fits all' IMHO.

Cheers,
Bob

[Tammy]

Originally posted by Drew McPheeters:
Why stop there? Why not under 12, 13-16, 17 -18, 18-21? You could get carried away with this stuff. Eventually you could end up with 3 players in each category, everyone gets a medal, noone is disappointed, noone feels the urge to get better.Don't you think your reply is a bit harsh? I can totally relate to the idea of not wanting to compete against younger players.

Although I wouldn't take it so far as to divide the grades into age categories I can understand the idea. I didn't begin piping until I was 36. Even with consistent private lessons and practice - I have seen my son (13) pick up piping this summer and not only catch me - but surpass me in playing. His ability to master fast fingering moves and memorization amazes me.

Would I want to compete against him or 12 more like him? NOT! Why subject myself to disappointment when all I'm going to get from it is some judges opinion on my piping? At my age I really don't need to get all dressed up to sweat, pace, and be unnerved when I know realistically I don't have a chance. It's all about the kids.

I once asked a judge from Scotland why the younger pipers seem favored and he came straight out and told me... "these kids, with their youth and with encouragement have the potential to one day compete in the worlds... where do you think a 40 year old is going?"

This can really be discouraging to a person who really applies themselves. Therefore I can completely understand the concept of age categories for competitions. I have no desire to compete now. My teacher says it will hold me to a higher standard.

I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard regardless of the venue we are playing.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Bob:
Hi Bob,
WUSPBA - I would guess thei solo players are on average much older, and I do know they used to have age divisions - I'm out of date with them - but I do know that 5 years ago and more, G4 comps. in WUSPBA were often divided by age, then G3 and up were all single (no division by age) classes..
Hey Bob, there is no "official" age divisions. Some games do use the age division as an idea to divide up the preliminary leets in grade 4. But the playoff is a single competition with no age divisions.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Tammy Vega:
[QBDon't you think your reply is a bit harsh? I can totally relate to the idea of not wanting to compete against younger players.
[/QB]Perhaps. I do have that tendancy from time to time. :eek:

I understand the frustration. Hey, as I said, I'm a drummer. I got my butt kicked by Eli when he was a youngster of 12 or 13.

My take on it is like this. If you limit the competition to exclude players that are likely to be better, what do you accomplish with a win? It's when you succeed in spite of the obstacles in front of you that it is most rewarding.

By the way, we seem to be saying that by virtue of their age, they are more able. I reject this. Certainly there are issues with time, learning curve, etc. But I have seen a lot of young pipers that don't become good players, and ultimately give up, but somehow those pipers don't pose a threat to us. I have also seen adult beginners take off from the start.

Perhaps it is a numbers game. We assume that youth is an advantage because most of the people beating us are younger than us. But perhaps most of the beginning competitors are young, so it skews the odds in favor of a youth winning. Younger people seem to be more keen to the challenge, and don't often seem to think it unfair to have to compete against older folks.

When I was WUSPBA Secretary, a piper mom came up to me and complained about her 11 year old son having to compete against 'old guys' that have been playing for years. This was before he had competed in his first contest. I just smiled at her and said "You know those people think it is unfair for them to compete against your son"? She didn't believe me. He didn' place the first couple of times, but eventually he did. The funny thing was, I never got the impression he thought it was an issue.

[Raonull]

Back in the winter of 2001 issue of WUSPBA's Words & Music, Pages 24 & 25, there was a Proposal No. 1(b) submitted by John Partanen PP0193. In Articles II, III, & IV, Rules and Recommendations for Solo Piping, Snare Drumming, and Tenor Drumming Competitions, there was a reccomendation for Senior classes beginning at age 55 and up. What ever happened to this part of the proposal at the 2001 AGM? Never have heard any more about it.
:shrug:

[Alph]

I once asked a judge from Scotland why the younger pipers seem favored and he came straight out and told me... "these kids, with their youth and with encouragement have the potential to one day compete in the worlds... where do you think a 40 year old is going?"

This can really be discouraging to a person who really applies themselves. >>

This is SOOOO true! I took up the pipes at the age of 40, and used to hear the connotation of "adult learner" whispered a lot. Up until I understood the meaning behind it,like the above statement, I had visions of greatness bouncing around in my head. Then once I truly understood why it was whispered that way, and what it meant, it completely destroyed all my dreams and ambitions, and I immediately decided "the heck with it, I'll never be anything but a hack" and even gave it up for awhile. But now after being around the scene for awhile, and watching my daughter pick up the pipes in a tiny fraction of the time, I can see why this is said. We old folks just can't learn as easily as the kids can, and as a result age categorys are certainly needed, not too many, but surely "40 and over" should be seperated from youngsters. they may scoff at this (as one post does) but then again I'm betting that person hasn't hit 40 yet, the physical changes are undenyable. I would however like to see phrases like "adult learner" abolished, or at least kept secret, because those two words destroyed my dreams and ambitions, and set me back years in my learning. It is still a terrible, hurtful feeling to even remember how I felt when quotes like the one at the top of my post destroyed my dreams of being great someday. Who knows where I'd be right now if I'd never heard that phrase... :(

[Marc]

Originally posted by Tammy Vega:

I once asked a judge from Scotland why the younger pipers seem favored and he came straight out and told me... "these kids, with their youth and with encouragement have the potential to one day compete in the worlds... where do you think a 40 year old is going?"
I was my first time at a competition this year, only to show the look and feel of this thing and to reach some critics from other people than my band mates. :thumb: I'm proud of it, cause it was my best playing in this time (tuning done it alone - others had done it of theyr P/M's!) on a pipe only slightly out of tune. So I'm not disappointet. Maybe I'll go next year on the intermediate level (6/8's or Slow Air/Jig) only to see how I had done it the year between.

[Alph]

I took my pipes four years ago with an age of 28, I have a wife and soon the second child. My family is more important than my success/stamina/ability in playing the pipes. It's not a handicap - it's a reason.>>

Marc,
I think you hit the naill (misspel intended) on the head with your statement. Teens and youngsters with no family life have nothing else to distract them, like paying bills, going to work, etc. etc., none of the daily worrys we adults do, and as a result make playing the pipes their focus in life. Of course this maybe the reason their memories and learning abilities are so much better to, no distractions.
It would be interesting to see what we would be capable of if not for that "adult learners" moniker that destroys so much of our ambitions.
BTW, you're just a kid still, wait until the big 4-o creeps up on you :lol:! Enjoy your playing now.

[Bogus Piper]

(The context of this reply is the PPBSO circuit.)

Younger pipers are preferred and win, even when their playing is clearly not as good as older pipers. After all we want to "encourage the kids." I mean, how can you NOT give the prize to that cute 12 year old? This is an unfortuneate attitude and does not serve piping, nor piping excellence at all. I have both seen this and experienced it too many times to recall. It was suggested that this is a problem with judging and not the competition, which is true, however, it is so prevalent that the entire competition scene is essentially off limits to adult pipers. The problem is more intense in the lower grades. In the grade 1 and open categories you can win based on skill, but you might as well forget entering grade 4 or 3 if you are over 30, in my opinion. I have stopped competing for this reason and will probably never do so again, even though I could enter the grade two events now. You see, I am 36 and by no means cute!

I think that some division for adult pipers would be good. It would be too hard to manage for all grades but I like what I have heard about in B.C. Perhaps you could have the following:

1. Adult (30 and over) beginners.
2. Adult (30 and over) intermediate.
3. Adult (30 and over) advanced.

So in effect you have a new grading scheme (three levels) for the 30 and over crowd. Beginners would appeal to those in grade 5. Intermediate would be for grade 4 and 3 and advanced for grade two. I don't know what the answer is, but let' be honest about what is happening. Perhaps there needs to be some panel discussions about this at the various organizations.

[Ayrhead]

Originally posted by Tammy Vega:

Although I wouldn't take it so far as to divide the grades into age categories I can understand the idea. I didn't begin piping until I was 36. Even with consistent private lessons and practice - I have seen my son (13) pick up piping this summer and not only catch me - but surpass me in playing. His ability to master fast fingering moves and memorization amazes me.

Would I want to compete against him or 12 more like him? NOT!
_____________________________________________

That's Exactly the person I do want to compete against. That's who makes me work even harder the next time.
_____________________________________________

Why subject myself to disappointment when all I'm going to get from it is some judges opinion on my piping? _____________________________________________

Isn't that the whole point? To get another opinion, to learn from it, and to grow??
_____________________________________________
At my age I really don't need to get all dressed up to sweat, pace, and be unnerved when I know realistically I don't have a chance. It's all about the kids.

_____________________________________________

Horseradish!!! It's not all about the kids unless you let it be about the kids. It's about ALL of us, and about all of piping. At the moment when you're on the boards, it's all about YOU!
_____________________________________________

This can really be discouraging to a person who really applies themselves. Therefore I can completely understand the concept of age categories for competitions. I have no desire to compete now. My teacher says it will hold me to a higher standard.

I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard regardless of the venue we are playing.__________________________________________ ___

Your instructor is absolutely right. When you go out to compete, you are not competing against a bunch of kids - you are competing against a bunch of pipers. You are competing to improve your skills. You are competing for yourself.

That being said, competition is not for everyone, nor do I think that pipers/drummers who do not compete should be looked down upon. It's something that a lot of us enjoy, and a means for personal growth and improvement for a lot of us, but there are many other ways to accomplish the same thing. Competition, by its very nature, just captures a lot of the spotlight.

Okay, I'm off-topic and rambling now, so I'll quit here. :) Don't mean to be so harsh. I guess I'm just tired of adult learners saying that they can never amount to anything. :shrug: That's just not true. It's just a cop-out.

BTW, I am an adult learner, and not at all put out by saying so. I started at the age of 39. I have applied myself diligently. I have accomplished a fair bit in 2 1/2 years. I expect to accomplish even more. :wave:

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Ron Crawford:
Back in the winter of 2001 issue of WUSPBA's Words & Music, Pages 24 & 25, there was a Proposal No. 1(b) submitted by John Partanen PP0193. In Articles II, III, & IV, Rules and Recommendations for Solo Piping, Snare Drumming, and Tenor Drumming Competitions, there was a reccomendation for Senior classes beginning at age 55 and up. What ever happened to this part of the proposal at the 2001 AGM? Never have heard any more about it.
:shrug: Both proposals 1a and 1b were tabled to a bylaws committee on a motion by Gary Speed.

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Alph:
I think you hit the naill (misspel intended) on the head with your statement. Teens and youngsters with no family life have nothing else to distract them, like paying bills, going to work, etc. etc., none of the daily worrys we adults do, and as a result make playing the pipes their focus in life.While your points are not totally without some merit, I know youngsters that go to school, make good grades, have tons of homework, participate in sports, have part time jobs, yet still manage to find the time to excel in piping. I know some kids have schedules that would make adults whither.

I also know adults who, for lack of a better term, have no life :wink: except for piping. They practice their chanter at lunch at work. Some even get on pipes. They come home, they practice. They are always off to some clinic or another. The adults often have financial resources some of the kids don't as well.

I find the whole argument of "kids have nothing beter to do" a bit presumptive.

[Ayrhead]

Originally posted by Drew McPheeters:

I also know adults who, for lack of a better term, have no life :wink: except for piping. They practice their chanter at lunch at work. Some even get on pipes. They come home, they practice. They are always off to some clinic or another. The adults often have financial resources some of the kids don't as well.
You talkin' about me??? :wink:

[SDowns]

Not intimidated at all. Beginning the pipes at 38 does have its disadvantages...and they are not physical. It's all about time and other committments.
I don't compete, but not because of the young talent. I find young pipers a delight as they are more willing to share their skills and openly discuss piping than many of the "older" pipers. :thumb:

Originally posted by Bob Budesa:
I was just wondering how many adult pipers (people who have real jobs, got started late, have kids and other committments) are too intimidated to compete with younger, lightning-fingered teen-agers, and therefore don't enter competitions?

[Jeff Wolf]

Wow! Some great thoughts and well expressed opinions, here!

Let's see if I can add anything worthwhile...

Competition: The intent of competition is to raise/maintain the standard of the art, I presume. To that end, and to have a meaningful result, the standard must be inflexible, i.e., the best pipers, regardless of age, should win. Boguspiper's assertion and Tammy's experience - that judging is skewed to the advantage of younger pipers :shrug:

The "youth advantage" controversy: Young people - 21 and younger - are pretty close together in terms of reflex ability. As we get older, reflex speed variation between individuals increases. I've seen and participated in studies that have suggested this, so, this isn't speculation. The hypothesis is that our genes and lifestyle choices may have a greater impact on our ability to excel at a hand-eye coordination task like piping as we get older. I THINK that adults that have remained active, and continued to use their reflexes at a demanding level are able to learn quickly - in some cases, as quickly as their younger counterparts. Some adults show a very flat decay rate in reflex speed until well into their seventies. Also, reflex speed and hand-eye coordination can improve. They probably won't reach teen-year levels, or even those of continuously active adults, but they can get better.

I'm 46, and been at this a little over a year. I haven't decided if I want to compete yet. After 24 years as a military aviator, I can assure anyone that I don't need the adrenaline rush of competition anymore :thumb: .

But I am intrigued, to say the least, and admire very much those that do go out there and trod the boards. :wink: , and piper of similar experience is going to compete at Enumclaw this weekend. I will be very interested to see how he does, and hear all about his experiences. I'll be watching, buddy! :cool:

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Bogus Piper:
Younger pipers are preferred and win, even when their playing is clearly not as good as older pipers. I don't deny that happens.

I have also seen judging preference based upon sex, band affiliation, instructor affiliation, instrument choice, and any other number of things.

Bad judging is bad judging. I'm not sure creating an age division would fix this completely. A judge that would likely give preference based upon age, would be just as likely to have a preference based upon sex or some other means within the adult category.

[Rick James]

Originally posted by Alph:
I would however like to see phrases like "adult learner" abolished, or at least kept secret, because those two words destroyed my dreams and ambitions, and set me back years in my learning. It is still a terrible, hurtful feeling to even remember how I felt when quotes like the one at the top of my post destroyed my dreams of being great someday. Who knows where I'd be right now if I'd never heard that phrase... :( Ah... regret! We are our own worst enemy. It's really too bad that such a little phrase could have such an impact. But it can.

You need to understand that an "adult learner" does learn differently than a child. It doesn't mean that he is incapable of learning, it just means that he learns differently. One example would be learning a doubling. A child must learn the concept and the physical task at the same time and often at the same rate. An adult is often capable of learning and understanding the concept much faster. But the physical task will take just as long - if not longer because of physical issues such as aching joints. This can be very frustrating for the adult learner because it seems he should be able to do whatever he mentally understands. If you want a better example, try starting in a karate class along with a bunch of kids. It can be done, but it is very frustrating.

[Ken MacKenzie]

Just to add my own feelings and experience to this thread, after having never competed as a solo piper for the first 45 years or so of my piping life, I finally gave it a try in 1999 by entering the BCPiper's Mini Gathering events in the adult class. I did four events over the winter and added the Annual Gathering in the spring. I enjoyed it, once I got past the nervousness, but felt I was limited by the somewhat low level of music requirements for the grade so I moved on to Grade 2 for the rest of the season.

Here is my own opinion of what I went through. Many if not most of the judges paid little attention to me as a competitor in gr2. My sheets were banal and held little if any useful criticisms and when they were compared with some of the young players' sheets it was evident there was a huge difference in how I was treated. Whether it was lack of respect or not is hard to determine but it certainly didn't seem to me I was getting equal treatment.

I returned to the Adult class the following year and when I played for the same judges, I noticed that I was getting more useful information on my sheets than I had been in Gr2. I also found it a lot easier to relate to my fellow competitors since we all were in the same boat. I also changed my attitude about the level of music required to that of one where I chose to play stuff that I was challenged by rather than easier tunes I could have sailed through.

In the end, I really feel that whether conciously or not, many judges aren't giving us older guys equal attention. I would never expect to place in the medals in Gr2, at my age it's just too late, but I want to get the same attention and consideration all my competitors receive. In order to do that, I'll stay in the Adult class and do the best I can. Also, I'd point out that "Adult" in our association, refers to any competitor over the age of 18 who wants to play in this grade. We can compete in other grades at sanctioned games if the adult class isn't offered
so the chance to get beat up by the wee ones is still there...

Last season, there was a total of 26 different competitors in this grade and this year it was a bit less but the age has gone up. Most of us are in the over 50s (well over) but there are a few young punks in their 30s and 40s. It's usually the older ones who are placing, at least for the last few years.

If I had to compete in the regular grades, I'm afraid I would give it up just because of the perception of bias from the judges. These are my own opinions and could certainly be completely out of line...

Ken

[charline]

I don't think I'm as much intimidated as envious and a little frustrated because I want to sound good now. It is also frustrating having to work, do yard work, house work etc when you'd rather be playing but thats life. I could go live in a box somewhere and do nothing but practice but Michigan winters can be brutal.

As far as younger pipers being more open, whom do you consider the younger pipers, 20s, 30s, 37 :wink: . All the active (playing in a band, competing, etc.) and experienced people I have had the pleasure of meeting or just questioning via email have been more than helpful and encouraging. Not only that but they are about the funnest to just hang out and have a beer with that I've ever found. (My husband thinks that's why I'm taking lessons). When I think of the stupid questions I asked in my first two months or so I turn green with embarassment but not one person made fun of me or treated me like a nebie.

Couldn't ask for much better people.

Whew!! Now do ya all have big heads or what?

[Bogus Piper]

Having said that, I think a good teacher, that hears you play frequently and knows your true capability - vice the "snapshot" a judge gives you, on a few tunes you've perfected -is a more meaningful gage, frankly.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. My teacher is a well known open piper. He gives me his personal opinion of what grade he feels I am in and also comments such as "top ten." So for me, an open Piper telling me that I would place in the top ten of a particular grade is accolade enough.

[NotMe]

Ah... regret! We are our own worst enemy. It's really too bad that such a little phrase could have such an impact. But it can.>>

It sure did with me. (I'm Alf BTW, I had temporarily lost my password)

You need to understand that an "adult learner" does learn differently than a child. It doesn't mean that he is incapable of learning, it just means that he learns differently. One example would be learning a doubling. A child must learn the concept and the physical task at the same time and often at the same rate. An adult is often capable of learning and understanding the concept much faster. But the physical task will take just as long - if not longer because of physical issues such as aching joints. This can be very frustrating for the adult learner because it seems he should be able to do whatever he mentally understands. >>

I think my instructor understood these things, but by the time I started taking lessons from him (started with my brother) it was far too late, and the damage was done. You are right, we can be our own worse enemy.
This is a great thread!

[Jeff Wolf]

Et tu, Ken? :(

Three data points do not a scientific study make, but, wow! If in fact, a no-kidding bias exists against older pipers, and the piping community writ large tacitly condones it, then I most certainly would be in favor of adult catagories. My previous assertion was based on the assumption that judging MUST be fair with regard to age (I can be pretty naive and trusting). If an adult piper has a significant chance of being denied the placing and/or feedback they deserve due to their age, why bother?

As I say, three datapoints do not make a case, but as yet no one has stepped in and put the kabosh on the assertion that judging is slanted to the young.

Sure would be nice if a few judge-types stepped in and confirmed or denied. This is really disturbing, the more I think about it. Even if someone could step in, and state catagorically that the instances of bias discussed here are isolated, the fact that it happens at all is really discouraging. Do judges' results get reviewed periodically for things like bias (age, gender, race?) If not...?

I don't suppose any of the various Associations would consider doing a study of results, and list placings by grade and age for a given year....my hunch is, probably not. The results could be very consequential... :(

This has ruined my whole day.....

[brad]

Shawn:

You and I share a lot of similarities, don't we?! :thumb:

I agree with you that there are many things an adult faces that a younger learner probably doesn't (in the way of other obligations)
But, having been around a couple of younger learners, including a guy who was my instructor for awhile - I can see that they just simply pick it up more easily.
Not sure why.
So, I think there is something to be said about the younger mind/faster reflex/better learner issue.
I think we can make up for some of it with a better ability to apply what we "learn" about the instrument, music, etc. But, I don't think we can fully close the gap.

Originally posted by SDowns:
Not intimidated at all. Beginning the pipes at 38 does have its disadvantages...and they are not physical. It's all about time and other committments.
I don't compete, but not because of the young talent. I find young pipers a delight as they are more willing to share their skills and openly discuss piping than many of the "older" pipers. :thumb:
Now, that being said, back to the original point of the thread, eh?: I think splitting the competition to two groups has no value.
I'm as a competitive a person as you will find, and I like to win things.
But, I don't compete in SOLO piping to win - simply to improve.
It forces me to practice differently than I otherwise would. You have to have the tunes "nailed".
If I do well, great. :D
But, no matter what, I appreciate receiving criticism of my abilites. I agree with Ken's comments about the sheets. Sheets without comments is another issue - and really "frosts me". :mad:

I have no notion of becoming a piping great.
And I like to do well, and winning medals, trophies, money or anything for that matter, is fun. But, to me, winning a medal because the group was split doesn't make any sense.

Part of that may because I'm also not intimidated by much. Heck, I'll play whatever I can, whenever I can. Nobody holding me back but me.
God gave me the physical ability to play, and the resources and desire, :wow:

I'll quit ramblin' now

Brad

[Hank Delison]

I believe I quailfy as an adult learner. Started when I was 49 and am now 55. Do I compete, no. But not because the kids intimidate me, rather, I feel the contests are for the kids. Adults can and do and should find other ways to make themselves feel good about their pipeing. Like bands. Which is just a place to get together and play with other pipers. Now I can see getting together at a games and playing solo and together with other adult pipers. I've heard it called the adult class or some such thing. (or the beer tent) But as for serious judging of such a class, why bother, more to the point would be serious comment sheets from a panel of respected pipers. It's just not important to me to know if I played better them Ken or Jeff or whoever, but it would be fun to play with them or alongside of them or at the same venue or some such. I'm sure I would be nerveous as all get out, my wife would like as not toss her cookies, we are both too used to having the band around us.
By the way, Is SFU coming to Enumclaw? And was that Bob D. in the white hat carring the camera with the white lens? at Portland?

Hank

[Victoria Crowe]

Well, I was looking forward to competing next year if I can get my pipes up and running and can play decently- just to get some more feedback and meet more adult piper people. I'm kind of wondering now. I watched some of the solo competitions at the Portland Highland Games and one judge would talk to each player after they were done besides doing a write up. I thought that was great.

I don't think any of the "kids" I watched in that grade were over 20 though. (Maybe I can pass for 20 something even though I'm 34 :wink: ). Playing for a judge is such a funky thing anyways, you've got one shot to overcome your stage fright, have every thing in tune and hit all the notes and play with feeling. So I agree that if your teacher is a great piper they can definately assess your ability on regular basis and give you really good feedback. But I'd still like to try competitions.

I know I have secret dreams about being a great piper and I wish I had started a lot younger, but I'm not going to let this late start hold me back (though I never saw myself going to Worlds or anything like that). I'm super frustrated that I'm not farther along and I'm hard on myself. But I wouldn't trade any of the butterflies before class or frustration for anything else.

My two cents.

Victoria

[Jeff Wolf]

Hank,

SFU is scheduled to compete at Enumclaw, the only Gr 1 band scheduled. As for the fellow with the white big brimmed hat and camera...probably Bob, but without a beer tent fence to be negotiated, it's hard to be sure. Bob is the only grand master of the beer tent fence kilted triple toe loop in the pike position...If the person you describe went over a beer tent fence cleanly...then it wasn't Bob.... :wink:

By the way, Is SFU coming to Enumclaw? And was that Bob D. in the white hat carring the camera with the white lens? at Portland?

Hank

[Vermont Piper]

I agree with whoever (sorry! Don't remember!) said that some kids have schedules that would make some adults wither - it's true. Going to High school (the most difficult in the state!), haing a part-time job afterwards and homework besides, AND THEN filling in the little slots of time with lessons and practice and highland games is a lot of work. :rolleyes: My solution: graduate early. :thumb: Have some of you forgotten what High School is like??!! :wink:

Jackie

[Mike Szarka]

Originally posted by Bogus Piper:
(The context of this reply is the PPBSO circuit.)

[snip]
In the grade 1 and open categories you can win based on skill, but you might as well forget entering grade 4 or 3 if you are over 30, in my opinion.
[snip]
I think that some division for adult pipers would be good. It would be too hard to manage for all grades but I like what I have heard about in B.C. Perhaps you could have the following:

1. Adult (30 and over) beginners.
2. Adult (30 and over) intermediate.
3. Adult (30 and over) advanced.
I think there is some merit in this, it would be encouraging for adult learners. I don't see much need for category 3 (adult advanced). As pointed out, if you are a higher level, one would hope you are being graded more objectively anyway.

Mike

[Bob]

Off topic (sorry) .. but Jeff,

If the person you describe went over a beer tent fence cleanly...then it wasn't Bob....
Portland's beer tent is out in the open.. no fence to cross :wink:

[Bruce Wright]

A number of people in this thread mention encountering a lot of prejudice by judges against adult pipers .... I really can't say I've ever noticed much. This isn't to say that there might not be some judges like that, but in my experience it isn't common. As for comments on scoresheets - I've just about as often seen kids with few comments on their scoresheets as adults. Some judges are just a lot better at writing comments than others; and after all, the main thing they're doing is trying to come up with a reasonable ranking of the contestants, not to provide a detailed critique. The latter would be better provided by your instructor, not the judge.

As has been mentioned before, kids and adults learn differently. Kids will often start out slower because they have less outside experience to draw upon, but will then shoot ahead once they catch on because their minds (not so much their fingers) are so much more flexible. It generally seems to take adults a lot longer to learn certain aspects of technique, but they often need less work on basic musical concepts; even if they've never played an instrument before, they've just heard a lot more music.

Also, in the lower grades, there is a huge premium placed on "correct" execution, often over musicality for example. If you think this is unfair, consider that correct execution is considered basic - if you can't get correct execution, your musicality will be forever impaired, as it is very difficult to go back and fix poor technique once it becomes ingrained. In the nature of things, execution seems to be easier for the kids. That doesn't mean that things are hopeless, but it does mean you have to be prepared to work harder and longer and more consistently in order to get the same results.

There's also often a natural tendency to think you're better than you are - to think of the best you've ever played something, or to think of how well you could play it, but in fact most of the time you don't actually do that well. It's important to realize that the kids are thinking the same thing!! But being kids, most of them can't express it very well ...

--Bruce

[Lyle Walker]

Competition is competition. Those little kids have every right to be scared of going up against me. :lol: Winning a trinket is not as important to me as finding that I'm improving in my playing. Besides, at my age winning isn't as important as losing slowly.
cheers,
ljw

[Moon Mouse]

I competed for the first time a couple of months back, at the ripe old age of 33, in Grade 5, no less! I felt like "Amazon Practice Chanter Girl," but I had loads of fun. I was competing with 4 adorable little tykes from about 6 to 10 years old. They were really quite charming, and very encouraging, both to me and each other. I think the key is just to keep focused on your own playing and having fun. (I came in dead last, BTW. Got nervous and played one part three times. D'oh!)

As for judging prejudice, I think there are only two types of judges: those who make their minds up before the first person plays, and those who don't. If the former didn't have age to prejudice on, they'd just pick gender, or ethnicity, or what tartan you're wearing. You can't let someone else's lack of integrity rule your self-concept.

[Ayrhead]

Originally posted by Bruce Wright:
A number of people in this thread mention encountering a lot of prejudice by judges against adult pipers .... I really can't say I've ever noticed much. This isn't to say that there might not be some judges like that, but in my experience it isn't common.
--BruceI'd agree with Bruce on this; in my experience, that really is the exception rather than the norm. I'm sure it happens on occasion. And I'm sure that there are some judges who will be biased against(or for) women. Or for(against) people wearing brown sporrans. Whatever. You just hope to be judged solely for your playing at that time. Most judges do an excellent job of this.

As for adult competition categories: I think it's useful in the lower grades. Not so much for the purpose of making adults feel more comfortable, but for splitting up the large number of entries in those grades. Age is just a convenient way to do that.

[Tosh]

Any judge that discriminates against ANYONE (for anything other than their music) should definitely not be judging at all. :smokin:

[Hank Delison]

On my way to Enumclaw, All you oldsters competing there in the lower grades, be assured there is at least one or two(my wife) in the audiance supporting the heck out of you. GO GO

[Hank Delison]

oPPS sorry, finger slipped. As I was saying---

Gimmie an O, Gimmie a L, Gimmie a D, Gimmie an OLD, Gimmie a F, Gimmie an ING, Gimmie a E and a R, whats that spell??

OLD FINGERS !!!! OLD FINGERS !!! RAH RAH RAH!!!

Give'em hell boys and girls.

Hank

Maybe I should bring my olympic score cards for the beer tent hop, twist, jump.???

[Drew McPheeters]

Originally posted by Hank Delison:
oPPS sorry, finger slipped. As I was saying---

Gimmie an O, Gimmie a L, Gimmie a D, Gimmie an OLD, Gimmie a F, Gimmie an ING, Gimmie a E and a R, whats that spell??

OLD FINGERS !!!! OLD FINGERS !!! RAH RAH RAH!!!

OLD FINGER? Wasn't that a James Bond movie :wink:

[AllisonB aka Sweet Reed]

Old Fingers indeed, Hank! I was so moved by your post that I peeled the hot parafin wax off my left hand to type a response! I started lessons in piping at the tender age of 42 (44 now) and have had to watch as youngsters have passed me up. It doesnt bother me that much since I have accepted the fact that I am older and slower...both at learning and getting my fingers to move. I DO think that there should be a category for older pipers to compete apart from the turbo fingered youth...but thats just my opinion. I know that teenagers sometimes have demanding schedules but they still cant compare to a person who works full time, cooks, cleans and runs errands (and all the other things involved in raising a family) and has to squeeze in a bit of practice every few days. The responsibilities of a parent are just too numerous to list. As for myself, on a good day I start out with a Celebrex and MSM with glucosamine followed by a little practice, then a break to dip the 'old fingers' in parafin, then practice, parafin, Aleve, practice, parafin and maybe another Celebrex before bedtime. And of course cooking, cleaning, laundry, driving kids around etc. etc. in between my few practice sessions. I dont know any teenagers who have to go through that! Dont get me wrong, I'm not complaining! I love my hobby and will go on playing till the old fingers just wont move any more! :D

[dorothy]

It's time for all you young whippersnappers to read _Never Too Late_ by John C. Holt. He tells how he took up the cello about age 50. He gives all sorts of insight as to the advantages that adults have in learning anything at a late age.

I took up the pipes 12 years ago at age 47, but I still get "carded" when I ask for my senior citizen's discount. :) I started competing in '95 and took a medal in my second contest (Gr 3 piobaireachd). I think we are very lucky to have an "open" adjudication system in which anyone can compete--so long as you belong to a piping organization. A small fee for such a valuable learning tool. In most other musical disciplines, you have to be 1) giving your senior recital for your performance degree or 2) a child prodigy competing for some kind of concerto performance to get such an opportunity.

You win some, you lose some. Each time you learn.

I taught biology for many years at a local university. The difference I saw between the "adults" (non-trads) and the 18-year olds (traditional students) was that the adults worked harder, and consistently made better grades than the trads. Talent, in any field, is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration (Tom Edison).

My tuppence worth.

[Spider Piper]

Twenty years ago, when in my late forties, I bought a set of pipes and took about 15 lessons. I quit because I didn't have time to practice as I was working full time and had too many other interests. Since retiring I took up the pipes seriously about four monthes ago. I would like to eventually compete at least once in the novice sections. At one point after retiring I competed in some bicycle time trials. In cycling, it's all about age and condition. It's very difficult to get into racing shape after retiring. So now I just ride for fun and exercise. In piping competition, even though I would be competing against the flat-bellied-quick-learners, I know I would enjoy it even with little chance of victory. At my age, I don't have the Lombardi-like attitude to nourish - that's not to say there is no competitiveness. I would enjoy the camaraderie and opportunity. Personally I would vote against age brackets even though I am 67.

[Greg]

2 cents, where are my 2 cents, oh here they are.

I'm 47 and have been "piping" since I was 43. I am a slow learner, which I attribute more to having a stubborn streak (it sounds alright to me the way I'm playing it so why should I change) rather than my age. But I am catching on, after a fashion.

I have competed one time this past May (GR 4 Senior EUSPBA). Granted this does not a broad data base make, but most of the folks I competed against knew each other so I think it reasonable to assume they were the regulars that show at most of the regional competitions. I did not particularly think that as a group they were young. I would say the youngest were in their late 20's, and all started as adults. Why weren't there any post 18s with us? I would speculate that those teens that have not progressed to the higher grades by the time they have graduated from HS have gotten the message about their ability and dropped out of competition. Besides between 18 to 30 most folks are finishing college and grad degrees, starting careers, businesses, marriages, and kids. Pretty full plates. So if you didn't start piping as a teen, I imagine most wait until life settles a bit.

The point I'm wandering up to is that I think separating GR4 into Senior and Junior divisions pretty much deals with the original concern of us beginning geezers competing against cute moppets.

As for competing to get a useful critique on your playing, I would agree that your instructor can do better for you then the judge. The score sheets I received, were well obtuse, and did not provide any insight on how I could play better.

The true benefit of competing I believe is that it gets you out in front of an auidence. An auidence of pipers. And if you can muster the wherewithal to play in front of them, you can play in front of anybody.

I'll probably keep competing once or twice a year for the next 5 years or so. I'd compete more if the competitions were closer and held during a week night as that would suit my schedule more. I accept the fact that this will probably mean I will always be GR4, but I didn't start this for the fame and glory.

R/s Greg

[AWPIPER]

Greg,
Your post was obviously a well thought out response.One bit on it though caught my attention.

Quote:>>The score sheets I received, were well obtuse, and did not provide any insight on how I could play better.<<

I do not know who the judge was....But GENERALLY the EUSPBA judges are not "OBTUSE"...They point out your weak as well as your strong points.They do "Try" to be "Politically correct"...But,if you catch them after they are done judging for the day and ask them to explain what they found with your abilty they "Normally" will answer your questions honestly.
As with any of the associations the judges are chosen because of their playing ability/experience.
Something I learned early on about competition is to VOLUNTEER to steward a event.You can see first hand what the judges see from a "Non-competitor" position...Although, each judge sees the competitors differently this will give you a good base to start with. :thumb:

Mark

[John Broadwell]

I've got a real problem here, if your playing in a competition against pipers of that grade or the category you are eliglible to play in, then no matter what your age, if the judge is doing his/her job properly then he/she must judge soley on that they hear.

Where would this end up otherwise, the competitor does not wear your tartan, mark them down, you don't like the look on their face as they play etc. etc.

I know that if I was ever fortunate to be asked to judge a competition, that I would be mortified to think I gave the contest to a youngster because they had more potential. Yes I would want to encourage them, that can be done constructively on the crib sheet but the best musical performance should always win. Ah!! but sadly, it is an imperfect world.

I have an angle here, I have played pipes for many years and these last seven years I have become much more serious about my playing, my playing has improved in leaps and bounds. I have had good intruction, I am motivated and at 54 I KNOW I am just getting better and better. The fingers are crisper now, the music is expressed better and I can blow tone. (Don't, please don't ask about the memory :wink: )I have won a few branch competition trophies too, so my judgement is backed up by results. :thumb:

I think as a final comment, if we compete, we must accept with good grace the judgements passed on our abilities and trust that the majority of judges are unbiased. If you get a few bad contests, then learn, develop and move on, I got terrible results when I first competed but now have no regrets about sticking it out and getting up, dusting myself down and going back to the drawing board.

Cheers

John B.

[Bob Budesa]

Well, I started this thing, so . . .

Good responses, one and all. Suffice it to say this is a topic of some interest, some confusion, and also some concern. I've learned a great deal from reading the posts (much about myself), and think at this point, the topic has outlived it's usefulness.

I'm very thankful to have 10 fingers that still move (I've had ample opportunity to lose one or two while roping wild horses), albeit slowly sometimes, and will continue to enjoy the camraderie, the music, and the assistance when given.

Keep music live!

[Bill Brockie]

Here in the Mid-West(MWPBA) we have Junior Novice
(under 30) Senior Novice(over 30) grades,4,3,2,1 &
professional or open.

The Novice(grade 5) is for both band and solo's
piping and drumming. The novice level can be kept
until you either volunteer to move up in grade, or
you are forced up by the association.
You can challenge up in any competition,but never
down. Once you move to grade 4 and above there is
NO age barrier, it's technique and expression that
are the primary points...if a person is playing
above grade,,,notation is made and if they don't
move up themselves, the assocition will.
As well in the bands, although there have been
a few situations where a band was competing in a
lower grade with a few "shills" in the crowd.
I don't feel this is a problem when a group puts
ONE band in the circle, but top loading a lower
grade band with players who played solo 2 grades
above the bands grade isn't fair to any involved
in the contest.Especially when they have a higher
ranked band that also competes.It is just a hunt
for medals, and what can they be worth when not won on an even footing? Just some more PX soldiers
(Grunts will understand) :rolleyes: .........Bill

[curate]

A solution to biased judging. Put the judges in a tent next to the platform so that they can't see who is playing. allocate a number to each competitor as well to keep it anonymous. The do it in brass band competitions.

Roger du Barry

[Rojellio]

Also, I'd point out that "Adult" in our association, refers to any competitor over the age of 18 who wants to play in this grade,
so the chance to get beat up by the wee ones is still there... "Uhh... huh uh.. Dude!! I just turned 18, Uh.. I am an adult now and uh.. I am here to kick your A## This is gonna be cool" :woohoo:
Realisticly though, I think that the Young Dudes likely keep to an honors system, and perhaps even shy away from the Adult Class until they are an "old timey old guy" well into their 30's.

An adult class would be the only feasible way to go about making a division. Feasibility includes such issues and concepts as Resources (Money and Adjudicators) Scheduling, and Sorting through the results. I have 5 years of organizing a small solo contest under my belt, I have one word to accuratly describe 3-4 age divisions and different grades in each divison.. The Word is NO.

Jeff, I can tell you right now what researching score sheets will indicate. You will find that the Majority of Competitors are Youths, and they take home the Majority of the Prizes. There are adults who place, and do quite well, however the number of Adults who do this are fewer.. but their numbers on the field are also fewer. On my field, with the Judges I used, there was not a Bias on Scoresheets (i.e better quality comments for Youths, and lesser attention and detail for adults) you could browse through and not guess the age of the competitor based on the comments written. (unless you know what to look for, Adult scoresheets often have more words like "breakdown", "Skipped repeat", "oops" and the like, there are also more "speeding tickets" issued to Adults.)

[Bruce Wright]

Originally posted by Bill Brockie:
As well in the bands, although there have been
a few situations where a band was competing in a
lower grade with a few "shills" in the crowd.
I don't feel this is a problem when a group puts
ONE band in the circle, but top loading a lower
grade band with players who played solo 2 grades
above the bands grade isn't fair to any involved
in the contest.I don't know about the MWPBA, but in the EUSPBA if you have a newly-formed band it will by default start out in Grade 5. Even if all of the pipers in the band are Grade 2 and above. You could petition to have the band start out higher but that might or might not be granted, depending on the previous band experience of the members.

Admittedly this is an artificial situation but in fact in a number of respects playing in a band is significantly different from playing solos - some of the same things are important, of course, but there are a lot of issues that just don't come up in solo playing (strike-ins, cutoffs, unison, etc).

If you have an organization that's putting out both a lower-grade and an upper-grade band and they have enough high-grade pipers to sandbag the lower-grade band with them then that's not particularly fair. (But keep in mind that in some associations you can have a piping instructor and a drumming instructor play with the lower-grade band; but although one player can help steady some less experienced players they can't carry the whole band). However in the long run it will even out - if they win everything in sight they'll be kicked upstairs the next year and be out of the lower grade.

--Bruce