For all you Engineers out there

[bronco]

Hi folks:

:ack::! I'm an engineer and sometimes as an engineer I can't stop thinking. I woke up today and I asked myself "Just what exactly is the pressure inside the bag?" I don't have a manometer, but I'd like to know the pressure, in your units of choice, inside the bag for a medium strength chanter reed.

I'm assuming that inside the bag, the pressure will reach a sustained level at least more than just one atmosphere. Steady blowing would mean the pressure is maintained inside the bag by the skilled player at this sustained level with minimal variance. It should be noted that a player can concievably underpressurize or overpressurize, steadily. Therefore, finding the optimal pressure for 'tone' (I daren't think an engineer find a unit for THAT) is possible, but exceedingly difficult given all of the variables involved.

The reason I am asking all this technical tripe is that I would like to create a graphical illustration for technically minded adult players who are beginning to learn steady blowing. Learning to hear it for onesself is a far more important skill that one can teach a student, but a graphic like this would help get the initial concept across very quickly.

Your thoughts?

[Jerry Limber]

Hi,

I think the pressure is somewhere in the range of 0.5 to 2.0 psi, but you would be better to check one of the sites which describe making a manometer to measure and give visual feedback regarding the pressure in the bag as you are playing. I think Andrew Lentz's site on Dunsire's Sister Site has a piece on making a manometer. I recall seeing some reference values for the pressure somewhere around here too -- try searching this forum -- the results may please you.

[Rojellio]

IF I recall, Aberdeen Bagpipe Supply in Texas sells Dial manometers that plug into your drone top.

[Cleg]

Aberdeen does carry the dial manometer already wrapped with thread tape. I added a fitting, could have drilled a stopper, and hose to mine and put it down where I could see it. The ratings that someone posted earlier on another thread were very close to what I found with my tests.

Bill

[Brant]

well...air pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi, so it must be more than that I guess

[Rob Kinnaird]

Playing pressure varies with the strength of reeds one is playing, but typically will range between 25 and 40 in-H2O. Most players will play in the 28-34 range, but I have measures some gut-busters close to 40.

R. Kinnaird
R.J. Kinnaird Bagpipes and Reeds
www.kinnairdbagpipes.com (http://www.kinnairdbagpipes.com)

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by Chisholm:
I think Andrew Lentz's site on Dunsire's Sister Site has a piece on making a manometer. I recall seeing some reference values for the pressure somewhere around here too ...(It's "Lenz" not "Lentz" by the way. You are forgiven.)

The manometer page is:
http://www.bagpipejourney.com/articles/manometer.shtml

And, yes, there's conversion values there.

Andrew

[Lyle Walker]

As a QA engineer, I just have to jump up and ask why you are worried about it? Are you going to calibrate with your manometer when you play?
IMHO, there is far too much thinking about how to measure when all you have to do is listen to your drones. The sound will tell you if you're over or underblowing. The greats of the past didn't need to know the inside bag pressure. It doesn't mean a thing.
cheers,
l.walker

[bronco]

Originally posted by Lyle Walker:
As a QA engineer, I just have to jump up and ask why you are worried about it? Are you going to calibrate with your manometer when you play?
I am not at all worried. I am only curious. I happen to have a student who finds the technical aspects of the instrument quite interesting. I thought a topic like this might make for interesting conversation at our next lesson. Rob Kinnaird's post was an example of an unassuming, knowledgable, and technically sustantive response, and the other posters seem to share that interest in helping me find the information that I'm looking for. My thanks to those posters.

[Colt]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I never in all my years head (or read) of someone wanting to know the pressure inside the bag. I'm sorry, this is funny - what next, will you want to know the tempature inside the bag too?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[brad]

Hey Lyle, you're right....but,

The Monometer delivers another source of feedback about blowing. You DON'T want to rely on it, as most judges would probably frown on you hooking up to one while you play. :lol:

But, it can provide some pretty quick feedback for improvement of steadiness. For people who don't have a great ear, it can be a nice (and CHEAP) tool.

Originally posted by Lyle Walker:
As a QA engineer, I just have to jump up and ask why you are worried about it? Are you going to calibrate with your manometer when you play?
IMHO, there is far too much thinking about how to measure when all you have to do is listen to your drones. The sound will tell you if you're over or underblowing. The greats of the past didn't need to know the inside bag pressure. It doesn't mean a thing.
cheers,
l.walkerIt's also a decent way to test reed strength.

When are you coming over to Des Moines to visit us?

Brad

[Richard Strayer]

Originally posted by Colt:
I never in all my years head (or read) of someone wanting to know the pressure inside the bag. I'm sorry, this is funny - what next, will you want to know the tempature inside the bag too?No, but humidity might be an interesting data point to capture.

:wink:

[uncle Mario Tomasone]

No, but humidity might be an interesting data point to capture. With or without humidity control system in your bag? And what about watertraps? And your own condition, e.g. if you're well hydrated or parhed etc? Sorry, I couldn't resist :wink:

[Lyle Walker]

But, it can provide some pretty quick feedback for improvement of steadiness. For people who don't have a great ear, it can be a nice (and CHEAP) tool.
I've got a different philosophy there. Teach a student what to listen for and there's no need to muck about with manometers. In the end, it's the sound that counts. Great ears are only educated on what to listen for. Instant feedback with a manometer is only good while using it. Take it away and what feedback is available? Plus, blowing pressure is going to change dependent on the reeds' setup. What is important is to understand the interaction of the pipe as a 'system'.
It's also a decent way to test reed strength.
That is a possibility. When a band buys two to four dozen chanter reeds, it's something of a hassle to sort them into categories, so being able to hang some number on them might be relevent. Especially...if the same setup is reasonably assured so that monitoring of the reeds while being broken could be done. Long term it may give you some insight of between orders and maker to maker data. What could be done with it, I'm not sure. Most reeds are a 'work in progress' anyway.
When are you coming over to Des Moines to visit us?
When will Pipe Band Aide be scheduled other than on the same weekend as the MacPherson,Ks games? I've proposed that something be scheduled on some weekend during the summer when no one's scheduled for anything. We go to Des Moines one year, you come here the next. Sounds like a party ready to happen. (Also give some thought to Winter Storm in KC)
Cheers, ljwalker

[brad]

Lyle:

I don't disagree with you.
I think the case where I've seen a manometer have potential is where somebody is working on improving steadiness and just aren't hearing the change.
The piper that plays a low A while tuning, and it just keeps getting LOWER becuase they're letting off and don't hear it (but could see it with a manometer - and hopefully start to notice it audibly as well)
Or, the piper that is all over the board because they're playing a tune, and don't notice the subtle changes in pitch (but could see them)
That being said, if you can't learn to also hear it - you're going to struggle.
I think the first time somebody hooks up to a manometer, they're pretty surprised by the fluctuations.

I'll have a chat with Bob about rescheduling PBA next year. He's probably more likely to change than the games committee.

Maybe there's a town halfway between that we could take over for a weekend! Seems like July usually has some open weekends.

Brad

[Lyle Walker]

I don't disagree with you.
I think the case where I've seen a manometer have potential is where somebody is working on improving steadiness and just aren't hearing the change.
The piper that plays a low A while tuning, and it just keeps getting LOWER <<snipped>> Brad, I'm not trying to be argumentative, other than opposed to manometers :D . I agree most students have no idea that their blowing is as unsteady as it is. This can be easily demo'ed with a tuner. But..if they can't learn to hear it then the manometer is never going to help. You can't take one with you into the circle or up on the boards. At some point they will have to shift their reference from looking at a water tube to listening to their drones and chanter. Why not strive for the end goal right from the beginning?
As I've been told many times, "the bagpipe is a crude instrument played by crude people." Why make rocket science out of it?
The original posting concerned with readings 'of your choice of units' based on a 'medium' chanter reed. Let's compare one of my medium MacAlister's with a medium ..say,<insert any make...> Gilmour, for instance. Medium ain't medium any more. Manometer readings are delta pressure. You need to have the ambient pressure recorded to compare a 25..35..40..from one day to the next. Let's say I have a loose stock. Mr.Kinnaird's 25 is now my 40, same reed, same conditions. Let's throw it on your set up and see what we get? The numbers are all relative and don't mean anything unless we take them back to controlled conditions. And when we do, what have we got? Hence, my original reply of "why worry about it?"
cheers,
ljwalker

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by Lyle Walker:
[QUOTE]The numbers are all relative and don't mean anything unless we take them back to controlled conditions."Bzzzz. No, but thank you for playing!"
:wink:

A loose stock is going to affect air VOLUME not air PRESSURE. Granted it will harder to achieve the required pressure to sound a given chanter reed, but a manometer measures pressure, so regardless of bag type, loose stocks, drone reeds (which are set based on the chanter reed) you will have an inherent "control," per se, to compare the strength of chanter reeds.

I think someone once caught ME on this logic error, which is probably why I remember!

Andrew

[brad]

Hey, anybody want to buy my manometer?

Originally posted by Lyle Walker:
[QUOTE]Brad, I'm not trying to be argumentative, other than opposed to manometers :D . cheers,
ljwalkerJust kidding. I LIKE IT.
(well, until the pretty colored water spllied out on the white carpeting that is)

Brad

[Bob]

I know of a band.. :D

Originally posted by Lyle Walker:
[QUOTE]You can't take one with you into the circle or up on the boards. Where they have modified one drone stock for each piper, so the manometer can be hooked up, as they tune the band ..

Maybe one of them will add to this thread?

A grade 4(?) I think band, not far from Andrew's place.. Prince Charles PB - yep, they had a Grade 1 group too - but I don't think (?) they use the meter for band tuning <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/shocked.gif

[Lyle Walker]

A loose stock is going to affect air VOLUME not air PRESSURE. Yes,Andrew, Boyle's law (?) pressure and volume are inversely proprotional. And yes, the reed will require the same pressure to sound, but the person blowing will have to apply more pressure to move the higher volume thru the bag. But if you're trying to put a number on a reed, it should be the same.

Where they have modified one drone stock for each piper, so the manometer can be hooked up, as they tune the band .. That's certainly possible and certainly to leave the drones in a untuned condition . Blocking off a drone while tuning the others changes the air pressure and affects tuning.
yep, they had a Grade 1 group too - but I don't think (?) they use the meter for band tuning I've lost touch with what's going on with the bands on the shaky side. I took a seminar once from Bruce Woodly when he was PM of PCPB (don't know if he is now). He said he expected everyone to show up in the circle after making a pass by the tuning meter to ensure their chanters were in tune and balanced with drones reasonably tuned. (That pretty much says they've got to be steady blowers!..but if were talking grd1, that's a given.) At that time, they were just upped to grd2.
Cheers,
ljwalker

[Lyle Walker]

Just kidding. I LIKE IT.
(well, until the pretty colored water spllied out on the white carpeting that is)
Brad, what you do in privacy of your home with your manometer.... :D catch ya l8r
ljw

[Rojellio]

The piper that plays a low A while tuning, and it just keeps getting LOWER becuase they're letting off and don't hear it (but could see it with a manometer - and hopefully start to notice it audibly as well)
Or, the piper that is all over the board because they're playing a tune, and don't notice the subtle changes in pitch (but could see them)
That being said, if you can't learn to also hear it - you're going to struggle This is exactly why I advocate the Peterson Tuner.
Sure "Nessie" costs like $200, and weighs a full pound. The 1/10th cent accuracy allows me to set the reed exactly where I want it, and I know to the nearest cent where my pitch is. (there are roughly 4 cents in 1 Hz) It can be used as a visual reference for what the pitch is doing in relation to the calibrated pitch, the strobe display scrolls UP if the pitch is high, DOWn if pitch is low, and fast or slow depending on how far off the pitch is. IF the pitch is way off the chart, an up or down arrow will be seen. The Strobe pattern moves the same direction that Drone tops need to slide to get in tune.

OK, here is the deal, once I am tuned I watch the strobe display every so often to see that I am blowing a steady pitch. The display can be seen from 10 feet away. In Auto mode it mostly picks out the Tenor Drones, if the pressure and pitch fluctuate, I will clearly see it.

[Ken MacKenzie]

Rodger, is the Peterson tuner any good for a band situation? Meaning, will it pick up the individual tenor or bass that is being tuned while the whole pipe corps plays? Next, is it capable of this even with the drum corps in action?

How about individual chanters in a band situation? I'm wondering if a note was set on the tuner and when it came around while an individual was playing, would the tuner be able to respond fast enough to read that note? It would need to have a very fast response to do this but wonders never cease...

I know I'm asking for miracles here but before I lay out the kind of money that instrument costs, I'd like to get as many answers as possible from one who knows...

Ken

[Brant]

Bob...technology will never end until we've killed ourselves off this planet :wink: :p

[Rob Kinnaird]

Bronco,

I am very pleased that you are teaching your students the "why" behind how the instument operates. Too many pipers don't have the least bit of understanding of how their instrument works.

I have found many good uses for the manometer.

1. I set up all my drone reeds out of the pipes using a false stock and manometer. This allows you to balance all reeds to the exact same cut-off pressure without ever putting them in your pipes.
2. A manometer hooked up to someone's pipes while they are playing will allow the player to observe how his blowing is. A lot of younger players with untrained ears struggle to hear the difference in sound. The visual indication of the meter helps them to learn to listen.
3. Knowing what blowing pressure you play at makes the job of reed makers much easier. If you tell me what pressure you play at, I can custom make and set up reeds for your instrument.

The manometer is a simple and useful tool. It should be included in everyone's pipe box.

Rob Kinnaird

[Wulls]

In the not so recent past I have been PM of nov juv and juv pipe bands and as PM it is your job to set an example and teach youngsters things like stability and practicalities of how the instrument works. I have been following this thread with great interest but the old fasioned method of practicing in front of a mirror and concentrating on keeping the bass steady does more for steady blowing than anything else I can think of. I was taught this way and it took me into grade 1.

[Eric M]

All you have to do is listen...
The sound will tell you...
Teach a student what to listen for and there's no need for... Not everyone learns in the same way. The mechanisms that work for some people are not necessarily meaningful to others. It's unfortunate when people think that what works for them must be the best way for everyone else. This is typically where stereotypes come from.

From the beginning I have been very aware when my pipes are out of tune and when the pressure is not steady. But I believe that this actually hindered me when I first started piping (due to anxiety about the poor quality of the sound). I became a much steadier blower after I switched to a teacher who took the time to talk through the mechanics of blowing steady with me.

In other situations as a teacher (math, guitar, trumpet, etc.), I have found that giving students insight into several ways of thinking about or approaching the issues brings the most success.

Eric

[The Lady Piper]

Not everyone learns in the same way.Ain't that the truth...

I became a much steadier blower after I switched to a teacher who took the time to talk through the mechanics of blowing steady with me. Ironically, Eric and I used to take lessons from the same teacher - who, while a brilliant piper, was, for me, "overly articulate." His verbal instructions didn't enter my thick skull very well :confused:

Of course, I'm not a logical engineer like Eric, just a dumb film writer-director... :bleh: , and I know I'm on the right path when his foot starts tapping along :thumb:
(Incidentally, he doesn't teach everyone in this Harpo Marxish fashion - I've watched him teach others [middle-aged folks, teens, pre-teens] in very different styles.)

His hand signal for "Unsteady blowing!" is to cup his hand behind his left ear.

:rolleyes: means "Why can't the publisher write the correct notes? I'm going to spend this whole f*&amp;%! lesson correcting the sheet music!"

My favorite gesture is when he takes his right index finger and taps hard on Jim's RHYTHMIC FINGERWORK book. No translation needed for that! :(

The Lady Piper

P.S. Much as I admire you engineers for all the wonderful things you've invented over the centuries, I bet not one of you knows how to operate a vacumm cleaner :wink:

[Holly Scott]

P.S. Much as I admire you engineers for all the wonderful things you've invented over the centuries, I bet not one of you knows how to operate a vacumm cleanerYes I do too! :humm: :wink:

[The Lady Piper]

Many apologies, Holly. How unbelievably sexist of me!...

I amend my statement:

I bet not one of you GUY engineers knows how to operate a vacumm cleaner :wink:

The Lady Piper

[Holly Scott]

Whew, Lady Piper, for a moment there I was afraid you have seen how my house looks! :D (now where DID I put that vacuum?)

PS. I really enjoyed reading your Cannes travelogue, hope to hear more of your journeys!

[Nathan]

I love the idea you may find somthing interesting and maybe write a procedure how to calibrate reeds or observe the abillty of a piper to blow or to improve.
Mind you that since air is a gas, pressure is not enough to establish its situation you need olso temp or volume(which is not fix in this case).
Nathan :thumb: