Band Discipline

[Alex G]

Is it acceptable for a Drum Major to visibly and verbally chastise a piper while in a parade for playing past the cut off at the end of the tune???? Or should the piper be spoken to privately and without much attention???

[Rob Gereghty]

Sounds like a job for the Pipe Major.. or the Pipe Sgt.

[haganjp]

Why chastise?? I'm sure the piper already felt bad enough about the issue.

[Pj]

Is it Right? NO Is it his job, YES.
When you step on the street the DM is in charge.
What they have to remember is that when we get off the street we are all people with feelings.

My suggstion is this. DM should have done this privately. If the piper needs additional work the DM speaks to the PM. The student and the PM go aside and work together to make the band sound better and the piper a better piper and no feelings are hurt. This is in an ideal world.

Unfortunately, on too many occasions DM and PM forget that we are all people who volunteer our time. We are here to have fun. They also forget who may have driven them to the function and it could be a freaking long ride home.......
Food for thought!

I had a problem when I first started out with marching. During the parade the Lead tip drummer got out of line and tapped me on the shoulder with his sick and yelled to me for many people to hear that I was out of step...

I was pissed off to the max for one. Humiliated 2.
After the parade I told the DM what happened, he didn't see it, spoke to the PM didn't care. Then went to the Lead tip and told him to sit down shut up and listen. If he ever did such a thing again I would shove that drumstick up his kilt. I then took his stick and broke it over my knee..
Never had a problem again...and by the way he took a cab home 2.5 hour ride, costly for him...

Solution is.. if you speak to the DM and the PM and no solution take matters in your own hands and deal with it. I have never had another problem again.

pj

[Richard Mao]

Are talking about a voluntary organization...?

are we talking about a street parade?

If a street parade.... my view is the Drum Major is the leader, traffic cop of the band's then current marching progress and performance...

not an on-the-spot disciplinarian... nor should that role be taken by either pipe major/sergeant or drum sergeant... NEVER ONE-ON-ONE on the street.

Now, suggestions for getting the members back in synch.... on the fly?

A piper( or different pipers) misses a strike-in/cutoff.. ? one appropriate generic comment from pipe major or drum major on the fly.... over the shoulder? "OK folks, CONCENTRATE next time!"

A member of the rank and file out of rank? Any body can shout out. Richard! "dress RIGHT!" or whatever is appropriate. or out of file someone in back of the drifter.... Richard! "move left/right" as appropriate

A member out of step? Pipe sergeant can start calling LEFT....LEFT.... LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT... and everybody should check their feetsies.... our rear drum rank who can see everyone forward of them is authorized by me to do TAP..., TAP...., TAP, TAP, TAP anytime in the tune... and everyone checks their feet.

NOW, post-mortem? discuss what kind of marching deportment training/guidance/support or strike-in/cuttoff practice is going to be needed in the next practice session... and whether anyone needs one-on-one support (not chastisement).

NO ONE needs the kind of grief of visible/verbal chastisement.... described... and I don't know if there is a pipe band equivalent of "going postal/ballistic"... Besides if the Drummie is taking time to discipline.... what is the band doing..... marcing off a cliff?.... THAT's the drummie's responsibility at the moment.

If this is supposed to be the fun part.....

cheers

I am NOT slowing down with age! I’ve always played this slow!
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[pokey]

Is it acceptable for a Drum Major to visibly and verbally chastise a piper while in a parade for playing past the cut off at the end of the tune????No, it shows a complete lack of command presence and understanding of the art of discipline. It is his job, but it's a sad statement for some clown to publicly chastise, "yell at" or whatever you want to call it...a band member, in order to make himself look like a bigshot and bolster his own ego in front of bystanders. I've seen too many "civillian" Drum Majors do this. Interesting enough, many of them have no "qualifications" at all, other than someone made them the Drum Major and they bought the kit.

[Alp]

Pokey I agree!

[PMB]

I do not think that anyone should be singled out in public for critiscmchastisement or correction. This should be done one on one in private. I do agree that while marching down the street there is a responsibility for keeping the "look" right and Richard makes a number of excellent suggestions.

Is it possible that the real problem is that the band does not pratice marching. Often "everyone" asumes that "everyone" knows!

Certainly not the case for our band. We constantly revise the small points which make a difference whan marching. Our members range from ex military to still in school. The ex military know ho wto march. Those still in school have never been taught how to march. To look good I believe it is our job to ensure that everyoine has the basic knowledge. (And that they receive it out of the public eye).

*** 07/11/06 - Edited message after discussion with author. - KMCM ***

[ray5123]

Originally posted by Pj:
Is it Right? NO Is it his job, YES.
When you step on the street the DM is in charge.
What they have to remember is that when we get off the street we are all people with feelings.

My suggstion is this. DM should have done this privately. If the piper needs additional work the DM speaks to the PM. The student and the PM go aside and work together to make the band sound better and the piper a better piper and no feelings are hurt. This is in an ideal world.

Unfortunately, on too many occasions DM and PM forget that we are all people who volunteer our time. We are here to have fun. Well said PJ. Competing or not, its supposed to be fun. IMHO, talking about privately is the right way to handle it.

[Pj]

Thanks Ray. I have a real problem with this type of attitude that seems to follow bands. Everyone gets all caught up and forgets to have fun.
I already have a job and a boss that can make this stressfull. I have a house with bills that make things stressful. I have a wife, well I woun't go there But.. silence is golden here.

Folks it's simple. Piping is our hobby and we can do this a few ways:

Alone because we can't get along well with others.
OR
with a band full of friends who's company we enjoy and who we spend most of the time with at practice, driving to events and parties..

I choose the second. I know of a few bands at the Jersey shore and I think Ray is a member of one of tehm but not positive who can write the book on how to be a member of a pipe band and have fun and learn and be happy.
Congrats to the Shamrock and Thistle and St. Brendans and the Shillelagh's of Belmar for doing it right. I live in Harrisburg and have found a brick wall here for bands. I actually drive 3 hours to play with these other bands just to have fun.
Hopefully soon I can get a transfer from my job and move back to the Beach.
See you in Aug at the AOH party at Veterans Park Ray.

My 2 Cents
pj

[ray5123]

The Pipes and Drums of the Jersey Shore Shillelagh's is an extended family of friends that I am happy to be a part of for over 5 years now!

Unfortunately, I am not sure about the AOH party for me, it's my week of vacation and I plan on spending it with the kids relaxing on a beach, at a waterpark, amusement park or something. Playing there the last 2 years or so was FUN because of the other bands you mentioned (from this area) and my extended family of friends :)

You are right about work, home, bills and add kids into that mix, there is enough stress. If the PDJS became that - no fun anymore - the band would fade away - since many (myself included) would leave. Like you said though, this band has it! The band has grown from 8 members a mere 8 years ago to 37 dressed with quite a few students on the verge of getting a kilt.

It might be time to start your own band out there PJ .....so you and others like us can have FUN :)

When you get your transfer - drop me a line - there's always room for one more in our band :)


Ray

[Pj]

Ray, I will let you know if I move back. Jack Cronen your drum instructor there is my Dad. If I joined another band there he probably wouldn't talk to me anymore.
I agree with everything you said. I really do think the 3 bands at the shore should publish a manual of how to do it right: Pipes bands that is.

Hope to see you in Aug but if not enjoy the beach and remember the sun block.

pj

[ray5123]

Jack is one of the best and I do remmeber who you are :)

With my bald spot a mere 88% of my head.... sunblock is the key to a happy summer :wink:

[Ralganpiper]

Why chastise?? I'm sure the piper already felt bad enough about the issue. for sure. we all have lapses of concerntration, and the look we get from our peers is enough to get us to have perfect stops all our career.

mistakes happen, if the person got a grilling, id say the DM used his "authority" to make him self look good. what do you think the public thought? maybe, look at that idiot, who does he think he is? or what an unproffesional organisation. lets not support it.

as far as a leader goes, well its not going about it the right way. unless this person does the same mistake all the time in which case he shouldnt be playing, there is no excuse.

[*Andy Hope*]

When it was suggested that the DM should have approached the piper privately, I may have a problem with this also. It has been my past experience that the 4 stripes that the DM wears does not always mean the same as the 4 the PM or the 3 that the DS wears. Most of the bands that I was a member of the DM never played an instrument and had no where the same experience as the DS or PM. I have no idea if this is the case in this situation but lets face it some DM's got their job by going thou the ranks and can play side/tenor/base and even the pipes or some combination, but others are just a figurehead that like to show their authority. It should have been the PM's job to find out first why someone missed a cut off then deal with it appropiatly. PRIVATELY!

[irishpipr]

Sounds like this DM dropped the Mace on his head and figured he was the PM. The purpose of a "modern" Drum Major is to be responsible for Drill, Dress and Deportment of the members. He should also act as a guide for parades, and perhaps in some cases take the pressure off of the playing members by acting as liason to event organizers. If a Piper was playing after a cutoff this falls under the realm of the PS or PM as it is music related. When the DM is "directing" the band using mace commands, he his not acting autonomous, but from direction of the PM, verbally or rehearsed. If there are discipline issues in the band, the PM is the boss and as such all complaints should go to him through the DS or PS.
This is my interpretation of the position of DM. All bands are different and not all follow military tradition too closely. WE ARE HERE TO HAVE FUN.

ULLAMH!

[T. Seeley]

"Ullamh!" A fine Cameron Highlander in Edmonton, perhaps?

I already liked you from the Tunes of Glory quote; I've built my life around that tenet! harhar

[Colonel644]

In my experiance it's a look that the PM gives when he hears the cut off, of whether I'll say anything or not; And to date I've never said anything to a piper about cut-offs. ( Other than during a rehearsal I might say "Let's all try to keep cut offs together")
During a performance if the cut offs don't happen, I don't move. I have a general philosophy about playing in front of the general public, Most of them don't know crap anyway , much less anything about piping. If I don't re-act during a performance but rather continue on as if nothing happened or it was "planned" that way, I'll let the audience think what they want.

IMHO, the DM is there as IRISHPIPR stated or at least that's what I do in my band. Also being the guy that goes around and gives everyone an encouraging word, making a point to complimnet successes, and let the DS,PM,&PS handle the technical issues of the band's playing while I handle the "logistics" and "motivational cheer leading" while on parade.

As far as "band discipline" as a whole, I'm usually the one MY band watches out for (I've been known to say things I shouldn't have :lol: )

[JRM]

"Correction", when necessary, should be done in private, and usually by the PM or PS. Never in public---that's a prime example of being unprofessional, immature, and ego driven IMHO.

[Ken Hosey, Panama City FL P&D]

100% Areement with DM Mao!
Never, ever, ever break deportment by chastising or arguing with a band member in public. Butt chewings belong behind the barn and in private. If you need to publicly embarrass someone, let that endeavor be at band practice in front of the other band members, never in front of the public. Believe me, I have eaten some serious fanny, but when all was said and over with, the infraction was corrected, and nobody was publicly humiliated and had time to correct deficiencies and save face.
Well said Richard!
Beers,
Ken

[Scott Jones]

Just like any other management role:

Praise in public, criticize in private...

[PipePlayr]

If I've screwed up in some way you can chew my ass all day long PRIVATELY. I'll listen to your concerns and adjust as needed. Embarass me in public and I'll never listen to another word you say. You will have lost my respect and I won't be able to trust you from that point. Works for pipe bands...works for the job site too!

[Barmy_Drumma]

i wasnt sure weather to start a new topic for this but ill just add it on here and if anyone thinks it should be moved then it can be;

today i was watching the last march of the argyll and southern highlanders and right in the midle of parade their bass drummer collapsed.. yes thats righ right on parade just lying there and all the DM seemed to be botherd about was gettint the harness off him to give it to another drummer and to get the bass drum for him to play when it is needed then ratrher unsensitivly i thought the RSM went over to the 5 or so drummers that where there and said to them 'you idiots were you out on the randan last nite? or did none of you have any f*&(ing breakfast? you'll be charged for this' right infront of all the croud!! do you think this is right? should he have done this or waited till they were in privet? thoughts on this??

p.s. if this needs to be moved to its own topic could one of the Moderators do it :D ?

thanks

BD

[pokey]

Barmy....

To my mind, this is quite a different situation entirely. First of all....in this instance, it's the ARMY...not a civillian band...instant discipline is paramount. I would hazzard a guess the RSM knew the lads had been out on a pisser and their screw up was dealt with immediately...as it should have been. The RSM is not dealing with little boys...or individuals with "sensitive" feelings, he's dealing with soldiers who know better...AND...are aware of the consequences for their actions. If in fact they were on a pisser, they screwed up, they know it and the RSM dealt with it appropriately and most certainly swiftly. Rest assured the other band members would certainly take note. A parade of that importance is not the time to piss off the RSM.

Troops will never change...(god bless them)...and they will pay the price when the step on their own ____, well you know.