Why has the pitch of the chanter gone up

[Tipp-Exed]

so much in the last 50 years :banana: :rolleyes:

[Jake M.]

Well, the best way I can explain this is to relate it back to the dynamics of simple sound engineering as it relates to bagpipes and human physiology. If you were to take a bagpipe drone, any drone make will do, and ream the bore, given everything else remains equal, the pitch of the drone will be sharper than it was before the ream. In other words, open the hole and you sharpen the sound.
Now we have to make an assumption. I contend that in the last fifty years or so, the average size of a human has increased. Another assumption is that if the size of the human has increased, all organs and internal workings of the human has increased as well. This would lead us to hypothesize that the human ear canal now has a wider bore that delivers a sharper pitch to the ossicles that amplify the sound to the brain. In order for the new, bigger ear canal to be in tune with modern bagpipes, a sharper pitch is obviously required. Simple! Man, I should have posted this on April 1st! :D

[Dave Sanderson]

Maybe more expirienced folks can join in but could it be the pipes have to compete with the drum evoluuion from skin heads to kevlar. The modern heads seem to be cranked so tight it sounds like they are playing on the kitchen counter top. I've played with the old style rope tension skin headed drums and there is a world of difference.

These deep throated drums sound great,16" X 16" or 16" X 18" demensions.

[erracht]

I think it had something to do with adjusting pipes to be
able to play with mil. bands -B-flat was good for that,
whereas prior to this, the pitch seems to have varied
between A and just about B-flat. Today, it's often a bit
sharper than B-flat, I hope it doesn't become B soon!!!

[Jake M.]

"I hope it doesn't become B soon!!! "

No joke! I guess that the next step would be to have the pitch just this side of a dog whistle!

[Iain Sherwood]

It hasn't gone up that much, really - except in the last few years.

Since 1950, when the pitch was about 462-466, it went to about 470 in the late 1970s, to 474 through the early nineties; now it hovers between 474 and 484, depending on climate conditions and whim of the PMs. Personally I believe anything above 476 gets too shrill on the top hand.

Donald Shaw Ramsay was probably most responsible for pulling the pitch 'out of the basement' in the late fifties and early sixties; he used to screw the reeds way down in the seats of his Sinclair chanters to get good sound against the drum section.

[Rojellio]

"I hope it doesn't become B soon!!! " Old news. 480 is a B at 50 cents flat. 494 is a B dead on.

ITs going to go up to at least 502 or so before people get too upset, or complain too much. Until that time Bands will just keep buying a new set of chanters every time the words "too flat" appear on score sheets.

[Ross McMahon]

Easy. Monkey see, monkey do. Jack and Terry Lee play Naills. SFU follows suit. Then everyone who looks up to them says "if they're playing Naills I guess they must be the greatest pipe ever made." They fail to realise that Terry Lee could probably take the plumbing from your house and make it sound good. It's the same with pitch. Someone puts it up and wins a few major prizes. The piping public copy them.

I'm sure that if SFU, FMM, the Frasers, and Shotts all played 470 at the Worlds next year everyone would be changing their pitch shortly after the CD was released.

Before anyone jumps the gun I have nothing agaisnt the SFU organization or Naill bagpipes.
I hope I never see a day where chanters are at 502. If I do I'll buy an old Hardie and become a cheesy piobaireachd player like Ron.
Ross

[Edward Bradshaw]

It's all about psycho acoustics and the way our brains perceive sound. A higher pitch chanter “sounds” louder and brighter than one of a lower pitch even though it may be playing at the very same decibel level. You can see how easy it is to get into a battle of one-upmanship, trying to make your band sound louder and brighter than the rest. All it takes is a judge to give high scores to a band with a higher pitched chanter than the rest. Soon, others follow suite and say “if higher is better, why not go even further”

[King Rat]

I tend to agree with Edward Bradshaw, the recent increase in pitch of the low A had been mainly due to one-upmanship. With a sharper pitch, even if the tone does not sound louder, it sounds more brilliant and provides contrast as compared to the other pipe bands. This often gives a positive impression, and a positive impression is a key ingredient in winning competitions.

Personally, I think that this crazy tactic of trying to outdo each other by raising the pitch, has to stop. Tuning the low A at 466 Hz, equivalent to a B-flat on the concert pitch, would be ideal to me. This enables the pipe band to play with the brass band(though I do not favour doing so) and other instruments, including the tin-whistle(though not playing together, which makes this combination somewhat impractical).

Now, pipers tend to settle for 475 Hz. Now, if some jokers decide to make this the 'standard' pitch for low A in the GHB because the GHB is so "special", that is fine. However, until and unless there is some universally accepted committee to put it into the rule book, the chances are that the pitch is going to go up again according to the whims and fancies of pipe majors.

[Ron Teague]

Well- I do like the brighter chanters for band music and dancing. the old duffers made a jig sound like a dirge and a march sound like going to ones last reward. BUT the older lower besties are just the thing for ceol mor. I have two an ancient hardie and an ancient sinclair. The hardie is thinner and does better with high hand tunes, the earl of seaforth and donald dughal mackay, the sinclair does better with low hand tunes, kings taxes, squinties flame of wrath( Donald Mor tunes, Sinclair, Patrick Mor tunes Hardie(I wish I could spell)). So for most of the working music for the pipes it is a bright chanter and a bold drone set for me(my old hendersons) but for the music of the gods it must be a softer and lower set, my ebony lawries(1910) and the hardie and sinclair.

Cheers

ron Teague

[Temukapiper]

Its called TECHNOLOGY.

Why do we have motor cars? , not the horse and cart?...because the car is nicer!


Same with bagpipes!

[Ross McMahon]

We have cars because our world's have grown since the 19th century. We have a greater need to travel further in shorter periods of time. The pace of life sped up and we needed something to keep up. Plus the maintenace of a car requires less time.
Temuka. Would most people rather play a full silver set of 1890's Henderson or Naills? Funny that the Henderson's were made with old technology but would be prefered by most.
Ross

[Temukapiper]

Hummmmmmmmm

That a hard one , i agree that a 1890's set of Hendersons sound nice ,but a set of naills set up well would sound nice also.

Ummmmmmmm Maybee that could be a topic for the future......the fact that the older the pipe the better.....i mean in the drones....But the pipe chanters have got better?

Cheers :thumb:

[Happy]

Originally posted by Temukapiper:
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"That a hard one , i agree that a 1890's set of Hendersons sound nice ,but a set of naills set up well would sound nice also."
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Totally agree with that!


Also originally posted by Temukapiper:
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"the fact that the older the pipe the better.....i mean in the drones"
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More desirable mostly, not better. An exact replica can be made of any pipe you can wish for that is still in existence. They'll sound just as good as the oldies.

[Michael F. Bell]

Originally posted by Minkus_bmw:
The pace of life sped up and we needed something to keep up.I think you're putting the cart before the horse :p !

[Lyle Walker]

I believe the pitch was at first driven by the soloists. A higher pitched chanter sounded brighter and the gracings a little crisper. As the soloists went, the bands began to follow. Drums had to follow and the Kevlar heads came about because the other plastic heads would split. Same for the drum construction going away from tension on the shell because the shells were breaking. Where will it stop? I think it's pretty much peaked out now without a re-design of the instrument and I don't think that's going to happen.
cheers,
L. Walker

[Emmet Bondurant]

"So for most of the working music for the pipes it is a bright chanter and a bold drone set for me(my old hendersons) but for the music of the gods it must be a softer and lower set, my ebony lawries(1910) and the hardie and sinclair."

NOTE TO SELF: Embellish and expand upon this argument for future use with the wife!
:lol:

[Ron Teague]

IMNSHO, the value of the old darlings is the quality of the wood and not just in the antiquity of the pipe. It is possible that, following a darwinesque argument, only good pipes last, or possible only the pipes of good pipers last. Bad pipes or bad pipers's pipes, get stomped on or hit against a caber or fed to beavers, depending if you are American, Scot or Canadian. I don't want to imagine how our Oz and keawii pals distroy their pipes in frustration, it would be a down under thang wouldn't it?(How can you find your way with out the north star and the stary plow((ursa minor) probably whisperings of tasmainian devils or maori ancestor spirits.

Mr not PC

Ron Teague
el cheese ball del mar

[uncle Mario Tomasone]

Ron, if you're interested I can tell you here in Italy we just put the damn beast on a good-going bonfire :wink:

More food for thought now.
We all agree that a good set of oldies has a definitely 'different' (I won't say 'better' since I'm convinced it depends on the listener's ear and preferences) sound.

We agree as well that most modern pipe makers are sort of 'cloning' the instruments of the most prominent pipemakers of the past.

So: how aging can affect pipes' sound? Will in twenty-or-so years your brand new set of **put the name of your favourite maker here** sound 'different' as well and closer to the original model?

And finally: shouldn't this discussion be more appropriately held in the "technique and instument" forum? Barry?

[lairdb]

is it because some judges are also manufacturers and creating so called obsolescence(good word)????
the ghb is an old instrument, so why change what it is. are pianos violins etc being upped in pitch all the time----no. unfortuneately if the pitch keeps going up they will become unpleasant to listen to (the dogs suffer enough as it is)

[Eric M. Stein]

This pitch discusion has been going on for well over 100 years. I have read about it in issues of the Piping Times from the late 1940's and from letters to the Oban Times dated 1906. In the case of the Oban Times letter, it was a complaint that the pitch had increased dramatically since the 1850's. Someone must think it sounds better.
Perhaps it just a fad that will begin to reverse itself next year................

[Barry Shears]

I think that the topic is fairly broad and because of historical interpretation it is of some value under history and tradition and heritage so it should stay where it is for now and see what tangent it goes off on.
BTW Mario do you have an email address? I was looking for some historical info on the Piva in Italy and hoped you could recommend a contact person or published reference.
I was told this Italian form of bagpipe almost died out but is recently experiencing a minor revival. Your thoughts,
Barry

[Lyle Walker]

are pianos violins etc being upped in pitch all the time----no. Not true. Pitches have gone up and down for the last 200 years. As I recall, one of the tuning fork manufacturers has a history of pitch on it's website documenting the changes over the last 130 yrs or so since the company was founded.

cheers,
L. Walker

[Fhantom Piper]

I have a set of 1960 Hendersons. That chanter requires a longer chanter reed that makes them sound "mellow" All the pipe bands I've been in (3, so far), supply a "band chanter". The Henderson drones with Shepherd plastic reeds will tune up or down very well. For my own playing, I have a 1970s Granger and Campbell chanter that blends very well.
As for the rising pitch, Bobbie Gilchrist, a very good teacher in the Delaware Valley, used to ascribe it to an appearance of military bands from the UK who were all juiced up for their performances and who were overblowing and driving the pitch higher. As we all went and heard "How it should be done.." we then returned to our own band practice and started screwing the reed down as far as it would go.
My own opinion is if you can see the bottom of the staple through the high A hole you have reached the ultimate. :woohoo:

[The Pipe Guy]

Oooooo! I love these pitch strings.

Jake Said:

Well, the best way I can explain this is to relate it back to the dynamics of simple sound engineering as it relates to bagpipes and human physiology. If you were to take a bagpipe drone, any drone make will do, and ream the bore, given everything else remains equal, the pitch of the drone will be sharper than it was before the ream. In other words, open the hole and you sharpen the sound.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the pitch would get lower if the bore on a drone got bigger. But if you bore one of the tone holes on the chanter that in fact shortens the tube and makes it sharper.

Lyle, True the pitch has moved over time but not lately, save the GHB which has not standard pitch. Standard pitch was fixed by the Paris Academy in 1858 at a=435 and was internationally adopted at a conference held in Vienna in 1889. Before then there was no standard other than local or regional preferences. The United States fixed standard pitch at a=440, though I'm not sure of the date, late 1800's or early 1900's I think.

As for the bagpipe, it would be nice if a standard picth were established. But, if it ever happens I hope it settles a solid note like A, Bb, or B or whatever instead of in between like it presently is. However I doubt it will go much higher unless chanters are modified to be sharper or reeds smaller. Who knows what the trend will be. All it will take is for one of the top pipers or bands to win the Worlds with an a=440 and we'll be on a trend in the other direction.

[Seoras Guinne]

Folks,

it's become almost a cliche to include a throw-away line in many of these pitch posts to the effect of "You don't want to see 'chanter flat' as the first comment on the judges sheet."

Fair enough.

Has anyone ever seen or heard tell of a judge writing 'chanter sharp' on a score sheet?

Anyone care to speculate on what would happen if such a comment *did* appear on a score sheet?

Best,

Seoras

[Rojellio]

Anyone care to speculate on what would happen if such a comment *did* appear on a score sheet? Actually.. I think "too sharp" does get written quite a lot. Except its not a case of the whole chanter being sharp its just the pesky, unstable, fashinably crowless and super clear, piercing high A that is so easy to achieve when the rest of the envelope is (impressively) pushed so far to the edge.