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Moon Mouse
06-01-2004, 06:04 PM
Some friends at a local historical park are trying to convince me to participate in their annual festival event in October, marching with the Civil War reenactors. I have the music to Dixie, but I need some additional suggestions, including at least one for the Union troops. The tunes would need to be within the reach of an inexperienced (but hard-working :D ) Grade 4.

Thanks!

phinson
06-01-2004, 06:48 PM
The Irish tune "Men of the West"(aka "Rosin the Bow") was used as music for a Republican campaign song in either the 1860 or 1864 election and was called "For Lincoln and Liberty Too". "Shenandoah" is also a possibility. It is about an Indian chief and his daughter who live along the Missouri River and not the valley in Virginia. I've also heard "Campbell's Farewell to Redcastle" played by "old time" fiddlers so it might be a possibility too.

Goot luck

Paul Hinson

Dave Gallagher
06-01-2004, 07:31 PM
The Irish tune Garryowen is still to this day the regimental march of the 7th. Cavalry. This would be the best choice.
Dave.

Klondike Waldo
06-01-2004, 07:59 PM
Marching Through Georgia, Rally 'Round the Flag and "Bonnie Blue Flag" as well as Aura Lee, which was a popular song among West Pointers at the time/ "Lorena" works, almost, but with a little fudging can be made to work. All Quiet On The Potomac works, but I don't know how many people would recognize it.

I'm not sure if Garryowen ( a nice tune, BTW) was associated with the 7th Cav during the Civil war,
FWIW, you won't find any pipe bands in the records of the Civil War other than the NY 79th, which was made to change its uniforms and leave its pipes behind in Washington- the brass did not like the kilties, evidently.

there were several Irish regiments, notably the 69th New York and the 28th &29th Massachusetts, but they did not have pipers as far as I know. Neither did the 7th Cavalry of Custer's time, though they did have a regimental brass band.

Dave Gallagher
06-01-2004, 09:15 PM
I think Garryowen is the only official march the 7th. cavalry has ever had. The word Garryowen also remains the motto of the 7th.
This tune is associated with the 7th. and not so much with Custer as a soldier. If it was only associated with him as a person the 7th. would have dropped it after the death of such a foolish,arrogant and hatefull lunatic.
Dave.

SergeantFirstClass
06-01-2004, 11:14 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the 7th Cav adopted the tune after the Civil War. It was adopted during Custer's command due to the Scot/Irish in that Regt. And, about there being pipes on the scene, a set from that time era was discovered recently in a box in an old barn (also from that era) that had been untouched for quite some time. It's only speculation of whether they were played by anyone from the unit or not. Doubtful due to being mounted cavalry, but wishful thinking. The 2nd Dragoons (now the 2nd ACR) did have pipers documented (I have read somewhere but can't recal the source) and their last piper perished at 2nd Mannassas.
Just as a side note, a young Lieutenant Custer, while out west, wanting to be the first soldier in his party to drop a bison with his pistol. He was chasing the beast down and pointed his gun and bang, shot his own horse from beneath him. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

SergeantFirstClass
06-01-2004, 11:18 PM
I would think that most of the tunes like STB, Hielan Laddie, Atholl Highlanders would be appropriate as they are all old enough to be played then. Bonnie Blue Flag was the South's tune for the Confederacy, it's quite easy on the pipes.

JP Cahill
06-02-2004, 12:19 AM
"When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" a.k.a. "Johnny We Hardly Knew Ye" is a well known tune of the era and fits the pipes. There's an interesting version in the old Walsh/Glen book of Irish pipe tunes.

Cheers,

-John-

phinson
06-09-2004, 07:10 AM
Garryowen would work but not because it was associated with the 7th Cav. That regiment was raised in 1866 at (I think) Ft. Riley, Kansas.

The Irish tune Garryowen is still to this day the regimental march of the 7th. Cavalry. From the 1850s through the ACW, the US Army's cavalry corps (regulars) consisted of 6 regiments. The 7th through 10th regiments were all raised in response to manpower needs demanded by "reconstruction" and the plains Indian/Apache wars.

Paul Hinson

Joe Battle
06-09-2004, 08:35 AM
I too am interested in piping in the 1800 - 1865 period, in the U.S.A., in particular during the War Between the States. Can someone suggest further reading sources? A site to download sheet music for some of the above mentioned tunes? Someone, an "authority", to whom I might be able to contact? Many thanks in advance.
:hatoff: Tips Cap!

phinson
06-09-2004, 09:47 AM
Check out the "2nd South Carolina String Band" website, especially their "links" for ACW era music.

Paul Hinson

GeorgeM
06-09-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by StaffSergeant:
.... And, about there being pipes on the scene, a set from that time era was discovered recently in a box in an old barn (also from that era) that had been untouched for quite some time. It's only speculation of whether they were played by anyone from the unit or not. .. Thats of interest to a number of people I am sure, would you have any more information about where the pipes were found, who has them, or in what media you heard about this? Thanks!

Monroe
06-09-2004, 03:31 PM
Moon Mouse:

I don't know how new you are to ACW reenacting. But be careful with the Pipes. The wedge that slavery or an overeaching Federal government drove between the nation is nothing compared to the wedge Bagpipes drives between ACW "Living Historians".

I just want you to be aware that some may take offense to you and your unit because of the pipes. If anyone does take offense don't pay too much attention to the P/C/H. :)

OPD Piper
06-09-2004, 04:19 PM
The Civil War re-enactors around here seem to like Mistrel Boy, there are even lyrics written as an "update" from the Civil War.

I like the Cantaria page for period tunes:

http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lists/alpha.html

Chris Hamilton
06-09-2004, 08:29 PM
"Just Before the Battle, Mother" goes very well on pipes. Still an appropriate song today, I might add.

Chris

Matt Buckley_dup1
06-10-2004, 06:04 AM
Quite some time ago, I contributed a detailed post on the issue to the Forum. I won't repeat all that information, but a few thoughts:

A great deal of reasonably solid information can be gleaned from "Blue Bonnets O'er the Border - the 79th New York Cameron Highlanders".
This work, well-researched, goes into a fair amount of detail about the possibility of piping in the Civil War.

The bottom line appears to be that evidence for actual piping during battle is entirely absent. Period. There is simply, thus far, no historical basis for the proposition that the 79th, or any other unit, North or South, fought with pipes present.

Having said that, there is limited evidence that that some, extremely limited, piping took place outside the context of battle. "Blue Bonnets" cites, for example, an amusing letter to home from a Minnesota solder complaining about "alleged tunes" being played by a fellow solderir on bagpipes. Other snippets of information here and there suggest that isolated piping may have taken place from time to time.

If your interest in reenactment as relates to piping in battle is based in a desire to present total accuracy, then leave the pipes at home. As for non-battle piping, my personal view would be to leave the pipes at home as well. The evidence is so weak that piping at reenactments would seem, at least in my view, a bit forced and precious.

Noel Costilow
06-22-2004, 10:20 AM
Hello Everyone,

I just remembered a book of civil war tunes I got from Aberdeen Bagpipe Supply. The link is on the front page of BobD's websight at Music Related, Not Commercial,Music Books. At least that is where I have found them on the top of the list The book I mentioned has 12 tunes 4 Sentimental Tunes, 4 Union Marches and 4 Conferate Marches. Cost is about $5.00 USD. :) I found the Internet address for the page of music books so here it is http://www.aberdeenbagpipe.com/store/sheetmusic.html . The book Civil War Tunes is the next to the last book on the webpage whose address is listed above

Piping Tom
06-23-2004, 04:09 PM
The Civil War tunes from Aberdeen Bagpipe Supply even includes The Yellow Rose of Texas. You can play that at any reimagining event!! :thumb:

erracht
06-24-2004, 03:43 AM
I agree about Garryowen. I recently played it at a Civil War event in Prague. It's a most appropriate tune as it is both popular enough on the pipes and a historic tune of the era.

Phil Lenihan
06-25-2004, 05:49 PM
I just started reading Bagpipe Brothers and found this mention regarding Civil War Pipers…
Regarding “the 69th New Your Irish Brigade, also known as the ‘Fighting 69th’. The 69th included at lease one bagpiper, though he is only mentioned in documents only once—playing his instrument around a campfire, which suggests the instrument’s involvement may have been limited to entertainment at the war camps, not rallying on the battlefield”.

The reference is: Clair Morris, “History of the 69th of New York,” http://www.69thnewyork.co.uk/History.htm The link in the book has a few typos. this one is correct.

Cheers! PHIL

Grunt piper
07-04-2004, 12:31 PM
Joe:
RE: Your history research on the bagpipes.
I haven't done it recently, but did find some interesting material before. I forget what website I was on, but if I would do it again, I would go to loc.gov
The library of congress has just about everything dealing with history.
Bill

Josh Quinn
07-24-2004, 08:45 AM
Garry Owen
Minstrel Boy

Always work well, not to mention most folks recognize those tunes.

Klondike Waldo
07-25-2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by tomdavid:
The Civil War tunes from Aberdeen Bagpipe Supply even includes The Yellow Rose of Texas. You can play that at any reimagining event!! :thumb: Hardly appropriate at Lexington and Concord, though :thumb:

Highlandscot
08-12-2004, 02:49 PM
Being both a piper and a "War of the Rebellion" (AKA Civil War) reenactor, I can tell you - just don't do it. I have been reenacting for 18 years, and have seen participants almost come to blows when someone was uninformed enough to bring their pipes to a battle reenactment. The direction the hobby is taking is to be more authentic - so save the pipes for after event parties. Many of us spend 24 or more days a year reenacting, and thousands of dollars on our kit and hundreds of hours in drills and classes learning how to do it right, and for many, if not most, having a piper play would diminish the experience since all of the historical evidence thus far discovered clearly shows that bagpipes were never played in a civil war battle. I do, sometimes pipe at our Camp of Instruction in the spring, but that is on our property and only our regiment is present. But this is not an open or public event, it is where we spend a 3 day weekend drilling, drilling, followed by drill, lunch and more drill - to prepare for each upcoming season. Perhaps you could use this as an opertunity to educate the event sponsors?

:banana:

Larry/Lali
08-14-2004, 11:44 PM
"King George V's Army" is a good battle tune, and is good for Grade 4. (since i happened to be a grade 4 piper, and this is my competition tune)

Joe Korber
08-16-2004, 05:50 PM
Save yourself the trouble and graciously decline
the offer citing the historical inaccuracy and recommend that they find a proper fife and drum corp or a period brass band

also the pipes referred to in reference to the 69th NY were uillean pipes...the fighting Irish weren't parading around with the army of the potomac blowin on highland pipes

Joe Korber
NYCD Pipe Band
and fifer for lo these 24 od years

Originally posted by Moon Mouse:
Some friends at a local historical park are trying to convince me to participate in their annual festival event in October, marching with the Civil War reenactors. I have the music to Dixie, but I need some additional suggestions, including at least one for the Union troops. The tunes would need to be within the reach of an inexperienced (but hard-working :D ) Grade 4.

Thanks!

Klondike Waldo
08-16-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Larry/Lali:
"King George V's Army" is a good battle tune, and is good for Grade 4. (since i happened to be a grade 4 piper, and this is my competition tune) Maybe my British History is weak, but doesn't King George V,along with his army and associated tune, post date the American Civil War by many decades?

(from the hometown of John Hancock and the Presidents Adams

propwash
09-02-2004, 02:55 PM
I rarely say this in unfamiliar circles, but I too occasionally am one of the mean super-authentic campaigner types in this peculiar hobby of Civil War reenacting. I started doing it in the 80's. Studied it in college. Study the time period on my own time. It is just one of my interests. Period music is also part of that interest. I am a decent fifer and used to play with one of the premier fife and drum groups in the mid-west and was frequently among the company of some very well informed individuals concerning the music of the period. One topic that occasionally comes up every few years is the bagpipes. There is always someone somewhere who thinks it would be a great idea to have a piper at an event. It does present quite an idealistic/romantic idea; pipers marching into battle with the well dressed lines of soldiers, a snappy march to motivate the men… There just isn't the evidence to support that in the American Civil War. Maybe the English Civil War, or maybe in the very rare occasion in camp, as noted above... But there is such overwhelming evidence of so much other music that if pipes were even remotely common, they'd be mentioned. This is a very well documented war. This doesn't say they weren't there. One would be hard pressed to make such a final statement. But part of the responsibility of living history/reenacting is to present an accurate portrayal of the period. If you aren't portraying a specific documented thing, then don't play to someone’s ideas of what would be “cool”. Playing the pipes at an event leads the general public to think they were common and will hallmark the event as one of the fringe yahoo farb fests to avoid.

In other words, politely decline. In the long run it will be to your friends benefit.

Throw this out on the forums on www.authentic-campaigner.com (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com) and see the response. Between the expected rabble rousers, there are a vast number of very well informed, educated, and knowledgeable folks of this time period.

Regards

Ben

Iain Sherwood
09-02-2004, 03:23 PM
"from the hometown of John Hancock and the Presidents Adams"

Bob - Wasn't John Adams from Quincy, not Braintree?

The only probable action in the US Civil War in which a piper or pipers took part would be the First Battle of Bull Run - IF the 79th NY regiment was there.

In the English Civil War, highland pipers would have only taken part in Montrose's campaigns.

Yes it is all romanticised by the re-enactor groups that want 'colour,' like the effing Ren Fairies with their Elizabethan court doublets and kilts...sorry, no, kiddies, that's NOT accurate. In re-enactments, it's better to err on the conservative side than to bugger up an otherwise good thing with glaring goofs. In the BAR they even count stitches per inch in sewing uniforms....

Dryburgh
09-02-2004, 04:09 PM
Iain, I belive the 79th NY Regt. was at 1st Bull Run, don't know about the pipes though.
I would agree with you and Ben aka 'Propwash' about pipes in general in civil war battles. Best left alone.

I can see from your recent posts that you're not a big fan of the Elizabethan Court at Pleasanton but do you have to admit they look colorful and are fun to watch. :thumb:

JH

Klondike Waldo
09-02-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Iain Sherwood:
"from the hometown of John Hancock and the Presidents Adams"

Bob - Wasn't John Adams from Quincy, not Braintree?
SNIP
Sharp ye are, Ian.

When he was around, it was Braintree. Old Braintree split up into the present towns of Braintree, Holbrook and Randolph. The North Precinct of Braintree is now the City Of Quincy, named for Josiah Quincy. Part of Adams' farm straddled the eventual town/city line. Both Presidents' Adams and their wives are buried in a crypt in the First Parish (Unitarian) Church in Quincy Center, now called "the Church Of The Presidents" Where he was selectman and a native of Braintree and his home became part of Quincy around 1795, it's no wonder both towns claim him as a native son. FWIW, I was born in Quincy, because that's where the hospital is, but I go to Braintree Town Hall for a copy of my birth certificate.

Spetsnaz Piper
09-02-2004, 07:30 PM
I did Civil War Reenacting for 5 years. At a real big reenactment, they wouldn't appreciate me playing the pipes, but at encampments they loved it! GarryOwen did exist during the civil war. Drum and Fife Corps would rattle that one off to perfection. My favorite is Frog in the Well and Downfall of Paris. As for marching them at your local park, that isn't a big deal! You are showcasing the regiment! If they do, they need to get a grip! They invited you! So have fun! :wink:

phinson
09-02-2004, 09:49 PM
I belive the 79th NY Regt. was at 1st Bull Run The 79th New York was certainly at 1st Bull Run. The regiment was in 3rd Brigade, 1st Division of the Union army. The brigade commander was Col. William T. Sherman. The 79th was brigaded with the 13th and 69th NY and the 2nd Wisconsin. The 79th was then assigned to Brigadier General Thomas W. Sherman's command and participated in the capture of Port Royal, South Carolina in November, 1861.

Thereafter the 79th NY served in the 9th Army Corps and fought in the following actions: 2nd Bull Run (VA), Antietam (MD), Fredericksburg (VA), Vicksburg (MS), Knoxville (TN), Wilderness (VA), Spotsylvania (VA), Petersburg (VA), Appomattox (VA).

The 9th Corps was transferred from the Army of the Patomac to the Army of the Tennessee in 1863 and returned to the Army of the Patomac in 1864. By the time the Petersburg and Appomattox campaigns, the 79th was out of the line and serving as the Provost Guard of 9th Corps. By that time, the regiment was down to 4 companies after many 3-year volunteers took their discharges.

Paul Hinson

Dryburgh
09-02-2004, 10:06 PM
Paul,
My civil war history is pretty rusty. Wasn't it true that the 79th had lost most of it's 'Scottish' distinctions by the time of 2nd Bull Run and Antietam?

JH

propwash
09-02-2004, 11:05 PM
Yes, like most regiments that began the war in various militia, academy, zouave, and other colorful uniforms (such as the highland related attire), it was usually dumped once it was discovered by the soldiers how generally unpractical such uniforms were, or after they simply wore out. They left home with these fancy duds, but the Army wasn’t geared to resupply such a variety of uniforms. Some specially uniformed units, such as some Zouave regiments, did retain some variation of their uniform for the first few years of the war. The New York Fire Zouaves who got decimated at Second Manassas come to mind. By 1864, few regiments were wearing uniforms other than the typical regular army issue.

In reply to the fine gentleman from Westchester; getting a grip is quite subjective, don’t you agree? This is likened to the one Renaissance Fair I went to a few years ago in Southern Ohio. I paid a decent sum of money to see some semblance of an accurate representation of a time period. After about the sixth moron walking around in tights with a Samurai sword trying to be the Highlander, I left. Maybe an education and a few years of personal research is more of a bad thing. It really interferes with people trying to live out their fantasies and perceptions of how they wish things were. Ignorance certainly is blissful. Whatever extent someone wants to try and be true to history is certainly up to the individual’s preference. We all draw the line as to what lengths we care to pursue if we are involved in such a pastime. But reenacting or living history becomes more of “pageantry” once you go down the route of showcasing a regiment in the park if that regiment didn’t have highland pipes as a part of their field music. You be the final judge of what you ultimately want the “public” (who I presume this event is for) to perceive.

Regards

phinson
09-03-2004, 06:05 AM
JH,

Wasn't it true that the 79th had lost most of it's 'Scottish' distinctions by the time of 2nd Bull Run and Antietam? Very true. The kilts were gone by 1st Bull Run. A lieutenant who wore his kilt one day while encamped around Washington prior to that battle and was practically laughed out of camp. I don't know about the Cameron trews, the glengarries, or the "doublet" style jackets, but I imagine they didn't last long either.

There was an interesting article years ago in the magazine "Civil War Times" about the regiment. As I remember, the article mentioned that the regiment picked up a piper while travelling through Ohio on their way to Vicksburg. But he was dumped shortly afterwards as his playing wasn't good. Also, I was in error before in attributing the regiment's assignment as a Provost Guard to the loss of men at the end of their enlistments (which contributed), but in the battle of Spotsylvania, all but 120-140 officers and men became casualties. Finally, two of the colonels who commanded the regiment were ex-British service.

Paul Hinson

Diarmad
09-10-2004, 02:36 PM
Wha Wouldna Fecht for Charlie is a nice and relatively easy tune that dates back quite a ways. Also known as march of the 42nd.