To touch or not to touch!

[HeatherJ]

In the last issue of the ScotDance Canada newsletter I published an article on a subject that has gained momentum. Since it is a subject that would require some change in existing rules it is generally felt that considerable and knowledgeable discussion should be undertaken on the pros and cons of changing the rule. While I am not yet sure whether or not I am sufficiently convinced enough to actively initiate a possible change, I feel this is an excellent vehicle to promote a thorough discussion.

There has been a feeling for some time amongst judges, teachers, and dancers that complete disqualification is an unnecessarily hard penalty in the Sword Dance for a Premier dancer. As a judge, it would appear that we are sometimes more interested in being sure we see every wee touch rather than actually judging the technique and style of the dance. Furthermore, some very good dancers, who are indeed "dancing" the Sword instead of "walking" it, are ruled out because of a minor infraction which sometimes results in a lost championship. As someone recently pointed out, we do not disqualify a dancer for catching their foot on shedding, nor do we disqualify for incorrect pas de basque timing which perhaps is more basic to the dance. Of course displacement would still mean disqualification but a simple touch, perhaps a bit severe.

If, after appropriate discussion, we feel the rule should be changed then we (through our various organizations) could submit a proposition to the SOBHD.

What do you think?

[Ron MacNaughton]

Heather,
I feel this would be a very positve change for highland dancing. My daughter took first runner up
in the US championship this year as a direct result of this rule. She tied with 2 firsts and
2 seconds and lost by points. However with three
judges/ (12critiques) on 4 dances she had more
first overall points than all the other competitors in
her class including the winner. Only one judge
caught the wee touch on the sword, the other two
awarded her first place. The "DQ" cost her the
championship, even though based on judges results
she was clearly the better dancer that day.
On the sunday it was an open championship against
basicly the same competitors she won first place
hands down.
In a solo piping contest a piper may be counted off for a missed or skewed embellishment but certainly not disqualified.
With all this being said I am a dance dad definetly in favor of the change.
These young athletes work hard and long to reach the national championship as you know. In my
opinion one wee touch should not carry enough
negitive merit to throw a compitition of this
stature, especialy with three judges.
As you implied there is alot more to critique in
the sword than whether or not the dancer is capable of completing the dance without touching them. How about elevation,or "high" highcuts
or turned out,pointed,sharp extentions,or even
a quick smile in between third step pad de basque
This stuff is tough and should warrent more
merit than one negitive little touch.
Change is good too!
I'd be willing to bet alot of dancers were very
greatful to get rid of sporrans and big puffy
lace and the old jackets (the female dancers anyway).
The main thing is to encourage and inspire the
dancer to continue dancing and carry on a long
lived tradition of heritage. Right?
I feel that disqualification for a mistake this
easy to make after six or eight months of practice
is a bit unbalanced.
Furthermore I feel that in the long run a change
could keep a young dancers intrest for a few more compititions especially the less confident ones.
Highland dancing is a vital part of the Games and
of our heritage it is very important that they
stay that way for generations to come.
:cool:
:confused:
In closing I would lie to add that I think an open
forum like this is awesome.
Thanks for your thoughts,I'll pass the word.
My daughter will love this.
Happy Holidays,
God bless,
RON.

[Ron MacNaughton]

Rumour has it in a recent figure skating compitition a very compitant championship level
skater fell flat on the ice during a triple axel
then got up and continued his performance.
being judged by five judges his lowest score
was a " 9.7 " thats along way from a " DQ " !!!!!
Go figure???????? :rolleyes: :eek:

[Roger Drury]

I feel that in the case of touching but no displacing a sword in the Sword Dance - perhaps a 5 or 10 mark penalty would be more appropriate. Sometimes a competitor will dance a near perfect Sword Dance and touch the sword during the quick time (especially in the case of outdoors platforms where swords have moved)and then be disqualified to lose a trophy to someone who danced an appalling Sword Dance but managed to "get through it"! Just like in pre-premier - i think a marks deduction would be more appropriate.

Regards

[Delma Wilson]

As a teacher and a judge, I would be all in favour of seeing only 5 marks taken off for a touch. Too many results have been affected by just a tiny touch. Children now are frightened to really dance the sword. They are dancing too carefully.

I think this forum is a great idea, Heather. :)

[angusmackenzie]

Hello, I am Angus MacKenzie, a dance Teacher in the Vancouver area. I must also agree with Delma and Heather and by the look of things everyong so far, that a possible 5 points is adequate for just merely touching the swords. Steeple chase, Equastrian all minor 4 faults, are we in that Prize Money yet for our dancers :) A disqualification is to harsh. Very few Dance Competitions , Ballet, Irish etc. don;t have their Artists performing over obstacles in order to win a prize :eek:

[Wee Sara Miller]

From the competitors view, I would rather see a point deduction for a small touch than a DQ. I still think There have been a few times(in premier) when I can honestly say that the only reason I placed what I did in the sword was because of many other dancers touching their swords. Although I was pleased with myself for not kicking the sword and for the placing I recieved, I really felt that I didn't deserve it, that it was just handed to me.
I do think that at the premier level dancers should know and be able control their movements so that they do not touch the sword, however things happen and I don't think that the dancer should be that penalized with a DQ for something that was as small as one wee touch. Now kicking the sword, thats another story!! :D

[Bill]

I am in favor of disqualifying for touching in the premier section, though I'm open to discussion on the issue. I have found, as have many other teachers and judges, that the automatic disqualification only tends to make the dance more of a contest of who can get through without touching rather than who can actually dance the best sword dance. If changing to just a 5 point deduction for touching will help dancers actually dance the sword, then I would tend to be more for it. Having said that, I'm not sure that moving to a 5 point deduction will result in dancers being less inhibited while performing the sword because they will still be worried about losing points, but in my opinion, it might be a step in the right direction. Of course we won't know if the dancers will be less inhibited until the rule is changed. Then, playing the devil's advocate, the question in my mind is, if dancers still tend toward being careful when there is only a 5 point deduction for touching, why not just leave it as a DQ? This is just one facet of this issue. In my opinion there are other facets to consider before changing from automatic DQ to 5 points off.
Bill.

[gareth]

I am in agreement with Bill and in favour of disqualification for premier dancers touching the swords for 3 main reasons (although I can understand the arguments for non-disqualifaction, especially when compared to other competitive events):
1. If not disqualifying then should marks be deducted? How many marks for displacement? How many marks for touching without displacement? Most judges and those individuals that have scrutineered at (in particular) Championships will be aware that there are often only 2 or 3 marks separating the top dancers, in which case even a deduction of 5 marks would result in an effective disqualification.
2. In pre-premier events, displacement results in disqualification and touching without displacement in a deduction of marks. The extra precision required in premier over that of pre-premier must be maintained and so should we stop disqualifying pre-premier dancers of have substantial marks deducted in premier? (then see comments in 1 above).
3. It is written about the origins of the sword dance that it was danced by the Scottish Clans before entering battle and that to touch the sword was a bad omen , indicating imminent defeat in battle, often resulting in death. If touching the swords then resulted in loss of a battle or life then surely loss of a prize is not too hard to bear!

Gareth

PS Happy New Year

[Sue Burgoyne]

Hi All and Compliments of the season.

I have to agree with Bill and Gareth here. I like the fact that a displacement means automatic disqualification as it makes the swords the most exciting dance to watch. Under Academy ruling in NZ there is no disqualification for displacement and marks are taken off accordingly, but at a good competition if a dancer kicked the sword then the marks taken off would surely disqualify them anyway.

At premier level I would hope that most competitors are DANCING rather than walking through this dance and so it comes down to concentration and skill.

Perhaps this issue should be under PRE-PREMIER Competitions - then I think it has more merit.

Sue

[Bill]

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in my thoughts on disqualification. As I mentioned, there are various facets to the discussion on whether to DQ or not in the Sword. In my opinion, for what that's worth, dance is about body control which is a result of proper body alignment and body mechanics. I think there is a positive relationship between ones body control and the quality of their dancing. For the most part, the better the dancer, the better the body alignment and body mechanics. As with all dance, there are some things that require more body control and other things that required less. The Sword dance requires a greater amount than, say, the Fling. Again, in my opinion, the better your alignment and mechanics, the better you can attack the dance. Good body alignment should be rewarded as much as good turnout, point and nice positions. Unfortunately, too often proper alignment and mechanics are not given much merit by judges. Unlike the Fling where poor alignment might go unnoticed because you may not move much or lose your balance, in the Sword if you don't have good alignment, you are going to have problems, most often in terms of balance. The result of those problems may show up as a touch, displacement, hesitation or even stopping. This pretty much takes the judge out of the equation as to who places - you touch the sword or lose your balance and the judge basically has to eliminate you from the prize list. Which is as it should be, in my opinion. Bill.

[HeatherJ]

I am delighted at the response to this post and very pleased to see very valid points being raised both for an against, from very informed people. The internet is a very valuable tool for this type of discussion and I am very hopeful that others will be inspired to participate either for or against!

In the initial stages of this posting we have heard from Canadians, Scots, Americans, a New Zealander and people from England! Isn't it great to truly be able to debate issues on a world-wide basis and shouldn't this enable all of us to make better, more informed opinions in the future.

Keep those postings coming and let's hear from some of you lurkers. I am very excited about the progress and checking every day to see who and where the next postings originate from.

Don't be afraid to start a new topic if you have another issue you'd like to talk about.

Heather

[John MacDonald]

Heather

We people from ENGLAND that you speak of happen to be Scots Domiciled here; although there are also others who are English and who play pipes and Dance (rather well)-for English folk!.

In all seriousness I also have to praise the Internet for widening the sphere of contacts and I have said all along that this medium is going to cause a gradual explosion in the General Piping Drumming Dancing /Scottish/ Celtic Culture. Thank you and the others for facilitating civilised discussion and Contact

John (I have had my passport stamped!!)

[HeatherJ]

John:

Thanks for the good laugh and I appreciate your sense of humour. I must tell you that I pondered that wording for awhile......couldn't decide upon Englishmen, Englishpeople,British (thought that sounded too general and not nearly as impressive as separating the countries)or simply English. How should I have worded it? Seriously, I think you know that no insult was intended.

I suppose this should have been a new thread and sorry for that Bob. Just keep you patience with us and we'll eventually catch on to this new forum stuff.

[Deanne]

My opion as a teacher and a dancer is that we should not be disqualified for a touch. In my experience touches normally happen in the late middle to end of the dance and although the rest may have been fantastic a small touch seems to throw off the remainder of the dance. For myself I find that I ruin the dance because I assume that the judge as seen the touch and has disqualified me therefore I give up. I think that with a point deduction we would see fewer "thrown off" dances and more complete full effort ones.