Moving Up

[Bob Norris]

In the EUSPBA What is the rule on getting moved up a grade? I'm asking this not because I'm thing of getting moved up (Someday maybe ) but there is a piper in my grade that for the past 2 years has won or placed in every comp and been POTD many times. I wonder if this person is just hanging out in the sun and not applied to be upgraded. Does the EUSPBA ever automatically move somebody up? Ive seen others moved up that have not nearly won as many times. I'm thinking that if I ware in that position I would be applying to be moved, but thats just me.

[Scott McClellan]

This is something that seems to happen far too often. I don't know what the rules are about moving someone up without the person in question applying for the promotion, but to just sit in one of the lower grades in an apparent effort to collect medals is rather pathetic.

This is where the PPBSO's new "quadrant" scoring system could help. If someone is consistantly being marked as "above grade level," then it should call for an automatic promotion at the end of the season... though I'm not sure how the PPBSO handles it.

I've just reviewed Section C-5 of the PPBSO rules (posted on their web site), "Grading and Upgrading," and it doesn't really address what triggers an upgrade, just that competitors will be notified of any grading changes by November 1st.

I know in Bob's instance it's not the PPBSO, but they are the first (that I know of) to actually mark on each score sheet whether someone is at grade level, above it, or below it - which would appear to be a lot more definitive on triggering upgrades than arbitrary numerical scores, and the relative placings at contests. (It's conceivable that even the last place finsiher at a small contest could be marked "above grade level," and it's also conceivable that the winner of any size contest might be marked "at grade level" - etc.)

Each organization should have something in place to prevent this from happening. It does the "squatter" no good to stay in a grade he or she has been consistantly placing in, and it can only discourage others who are working hard to be competitive in that grade.

[Bob Norris]

Each organization should have something in place to prevent this from happening. It does the "squatter" no good to stay in a grade he or she has been consistantly placing in, and it can only discourage others who are working hard to be competitive in that grade.

Thanks Scott,

This is my point exactly. It is discouraging to me as an adult learner to see this person hanging out. She should move up and be counted. n

[Steve S.]

Having been to games in both the WUSBPA and EUSPBA, however competing in only WUSBPA, it seems too many Grade IV players stay in the grade too long. Most Grade IV comps have only 2/4 march, slow march, and ground and 1st var. piobs. How many of us grade IVers are playing jigs, hornpipes, reels, strathspeys, and full piobs? I think if a someone is winning constantly they should automaticly be upgraded and make room for true grade IV players.

[Chris Knife]

Here's a possible answer: the reasons behind a person moving up in the grades should be a matter between the apprentice piper and the teacher--maybe that's why the "rules" do not address this specifically?

Some players may have a great 2/4 march (which took them lots of practice to get), but no full piobaireachd, no S/R, etc. to move into the next level competitively. The levels should be goals each competitor goes for, but one should be prepared.

And, winning Piper of the Day does not always mean that the piper was marked "above grade level"...just that he or she was the best of the day, on the day. At least in my competing experience.

When I was competing, I took situations like this from a different point of view: to play better/harder and beat my best playing on the boards (and be the person setting the standard on that day) rather than wait for someone to move out of the grade.

All the best,

Chris

[Jim Roberts]

I suspect Bob is guilty of hyperbole.

It is HIGHLY unlikely that a Grade 4 piper in the EUSPBA could "win or place in every comp and be POTD many times" and NOT be moved up.

If you take issue with a specific piper "sand-bagging," better to address it with the Music Committee than in a public forum. The EUSPBA can err on the conservative side when it comes to upgrades, but not at the Grade 4 level, and certainly not over a two-year period.

Jim

[junebug]

The EUSPBA has an active grading committee made up of judges of all disciplines who, between them, judge throughout the EUSPBA's territory. The process for asking to be upgraded is printed on the back of every scoresheet. The grading committee meets for a full weekend to discuss all the requests as well as to decide who is at the top of their game in their grade and should move up to the next grade.

Several factors play a role in their decisions. Those who show at the top of the standings will probably be upgraded automatically unless there is some unusual circumstance. Players requesting an upgrade are asked to also submit a letter from their teachers validating the request. The committee has a copy of the score sheets and knows when and how many times an individual was marked AGL. The committee considers the type of contests an individual has done well in...if someone makes it into the "top ten" in the standings by going to 50 games and beating 2 or 3 players, that is a different scenario than if a person goes to 4 contests and beats 20 players in each one. Both might be moved up, but it willl depend on the individual circumstances.

There have been instances when a player asked to be moved up but the committee felt that they did not have enough strength in a particular area...e.g. good fingers, but lacking ability to produce a good sound. That player might be denied the request to give them a year for more "seasoning" and to develop this strength.

These people do a very thorough job and no request is taken lightly. Likewise, those who show at the top of the grade are considered for upgrading whether they have requested it or not.

But the overall job of the grading committee is to make sure that those who are playing in a grade are playing at an acceptable standard for that grade. Players won't get moved out of a grade simply so that others who haven't beaten them will have a chance to win. While there might be a player who slips through the cracks and doesn't get moved up as soon as they should, often there was a specific reason. Very few ringers remain in a grade for long.

People who request upgrades and don't get them are often quite unhappy about it and sometimes can be quite abusive. But generally, the feeling has been that those who are moved up should be able to do well (at least the middle of the pack) in the higher grade, not just pushed up to make room for new winners.

While it is assuredly a subjective process, every attempt is made to be fair and to consider all sides of people's performance records in addition to their requests.

I hope that clarifies that people are alive, well and thinking about this process.

Junebug

[Bill M]

Originally posted by junebug:
I hope that clarifies that people are alive, well and thinking about this process.:hatoff:
I can only add that my own experiences with the EUSPBA grading committee have been positive.

[Bob Norris]

I suspect Bob is guilty of hyperbole Love those big words Jim :wink: .. If you like I will send you the list. Id rather not do that here.

My whole question was to find out what procedures are in place for sand baggers.

Thank you to all for your replies.

[Jim Roberts]

Love those big words Jim"Guilty" is not a big word, even for a guy from Horsepasture. :wink:

As June suggests, anyone playing well enough to be upgraded usually is, whether an upgrade is requested or not. If the person you're wondering about is not upgraded at the end of this season, I would not hesitate to ask why.

The EUSPBA is committed to upholding the standard of each grade. As someone who has been granted *and* denied upgrades, I can say it does a good job of it.

Jim

[Andrew Lenz]

"Piper of the Day" is not a guarantee that the piper is ready to move up. As noted above, it could just reflect the quality of the rest of the pipers in competition—i.e. a small games, a games conflicting with some other event, etc.

I know of a piper competing in Grade III—out here in WUSPBA land where pipers set their own grade—and he has no business playing in that grade. He sounded bad in Grade III last year and still sounds bad in Grade III this year—at least in Piobaireachd.

As for me, my Slow Air and Piobaireachd are quickly approaching Grade III level, but my 2/4 March, which I only finally started competing in this year, is lagging behind. (My medals have all been in those two events, I've never received one in 2/4. Once I get a few in that event, it might be approaching time.) Just because I can occasionally do well in those two doesn't mean I belong in a higher grade.

I believe the question is:
"Can the piper compete well enough in the next higher grade to not be discouraged?"

Andrew

[Bob Norris]

Andrew:
"Piper of the Day" is not a guarantee that the piper is ready to move up. As noted above, it could just reflect the quality of the rest of the pipers in competition—i.e. a small games, a games conflicting with some other event, etc.
Most of these games have 15-20 in the grade.
I think my point is being missed. Yes this is real, yes this happens, yes this is happening in this case.
As stated above I was just wondering what rules are in place for sand baggers.

[Jim Roberts]

Take it up with the Music Board.

I don't know any pipers who win in one grade who don't want to move up to the next grade. Whomever this mystery piper is probably wants to be moved up -- and will be come November.

Jim

[Bob]

My thought here relates directory to 'moving up' and not at all the the EUSPBA or the specific situation that Bob mentions.

I know versions of this discussion have taken place here in the past too..

Just winning overall, or winning specific events, or Piper Of the Day (whatever that is :rolleyes: BTW I think I know) does not mean the person or band is ready to move up or should be moved to the next grade. The purpose of different grades should never be to give everyone a chance to win events - that has been tried and it ends up looking very 'funny' (to say the least). I know of associations where there used to be a conversion used by competitors - of +-1 or 2 grades when competing in different / stronger associations :eek: (How can that be considered good?)

Of course, one of the goals of ANAPBA is to ensure that each grade has a certain, known and consistent standard, and unless the player meets the standard, there should never be a move made. Just winning events, contests, POD, etc, does not mean the person meets the standard for the next grade..

I guess I've never really understood this concern over who got the trophy - it seems to me that only the Pro, or Grade 1 (and Juvenile) for bands, are classes in which winning means A LOT, all the other classes it is just sort of a benchmark, and not really anything else..

:hatoff:

[ratherbpiping]

Bob, I think much of what you say is true. Being in a struggling grade four band, I certainly don't consider it a win by promoting the good grade four band to grade three. However, if that good grade four band is really a grade three band, then it artificially elevates the bench mark for the rest of us.

As well, most of us would like to move up the ladder, and see how we place against our peers as a way to measure that. If our peers are not really our peers it distorts the picture.

In Highland dance when you medal 6 times in a class you move up. And having moved around a bit, it is obvious that this creates areas where intermediate dancers in one area are stronger than in others. Another thing Highland Dance world does is have medal tests. Here the dancers dance for a highly qualified judge who rates their ability and not judge them against other dancers. IE no placings. YOu are a novice dancer this is how you rate as a novice dancer.

I suspect the quadrant system now in use in Ontario is attempting to do that and still have the competitive aspect.

Mike

[Johnny D. Burris]

Hi Bob Norris...it was good to see you again this past weekend! And congrats on your sons joining the fray on the pipes. I understand that there was a 1st place medal involved. You must be very proud!

To weigh in on this subject, I believe I know the piper of which you are speaking. And even if it isn't, I will speak of their situation and how it applies to this matter. This particular piper started placing early last year and by the end of the year had won several POD awards in GrIV. However, the piper did not play in enough games to have enough points to automatically get moved up by the EUSPBA music committee. The piper has continued winning this year and I do know from a conversation that I had with said piper, that his/her goal is to be moved up next year and that he/she is working on the full Piob trying to get it to competition standard. So, I don't think sandbagging is the issue here. The drive to move up is definitely there and I fully expect he/she will be in GrIII next year.

Cheers.

[Richard Mao]

Originally posted by junebug:
......

......But generally, the feeling has been that those who are moved up should be able to do well (at least the middle of the pack) in the higher grade, not just pushed up to make room for new winners.


Junebug Hi, interesting discussion...

But imho if the criterion above is actually what is being used.... the bar is being set too high...

(I'm minded of Garison Keillor's kids of Lake Wobegon... where everybody's good looking and all are above average)...

who is to populate the bottom half of the standings ... if not the newbies to the grade... the up and comers... the criterion above would act to create a permanent "losers" class in the higher grade.

how would you feel as a bottom halfer...knowing that the grading committee would only put new competitors into the grade that are going to beat you...

(it's bad enough being an adult and watching all the fast fingerered teeny boppers zipping by you).

I would advocate the development of a grade minimum standard... and promote on that basis...

perhaps a double blind test.... an evaluation panel twice a year listening to tapes of performances (produced under certifiably monitored conditions)... and/or having the pipers performing before a panel...

perhaps having the piper evaluated on his or her performance on a group (or one of a group) of "standard" set tunes appropriate to the grade.

so the person who is good enough... but may be a solo piper not affiliated with a band and cost and timewise can get to only two games a year... can be evaluated and placed fairly...

wouldn't it be more appropriate to evaluate a potential entrant into grade iii based on his or her performance on a MSR... than on the basis of grade iv 2/4 marches? (isn't the technical ability needed, the stamina needed, and the memorization ability needed a HUGE jump from grade iv to grade iii?)

just some thoughts...

Thanks for listening

Pipe Major’s Plea: Hey, folks, if you all do exactly the same thing…
NO ONE has to feel weird or out of place!

Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[Bob Norris]

Thanks Johnny and all,,,

Yea ,, They got a 1st and a 2nd. The youngest got the first so they fought all the way home :wink: Scores were 90 and 89 1/2 if you can believe that :wink:
This is really not a big deal and After reading what Johnny posted, its probably the same person. I guess being out only 2 years and starting as old as I did had me wondering if I would ever do better. Its not for lack of practice I can tell you.

Thanks again guys,,

[Funkee Munkee]

Good job! At the risk of moving this away from your inquiry, I would like to ask Bob (Norris) - are you teaching them or are they getting outside instruction?

Shawn

Originally posted by Bob Norris:

Yea ,, They got a 1st and a 2nd. The youngest got the first so they fought all the way home :wink: Scores were 90 and 89 1/2 if you can believe that :wink: