Grade 3s & 4s in "Senior Novice"???

[New Hudson Highlander]

I was observing the solo competition at an unnamed (got to watch the rules here) Highland Games recently, VERY recently, and notice something that really yanked my sporran chain.

While watching the "Senior Novice" class, I saw some very good novice pipers; one of them was blind, and played exceptionally well :thumb: :thumb: I noticed him warming up with his family there to help guide him around and stuck around to see how he did.

Anyway, there was this older guy, at least 30 years senior to the other pipers, and he'd clearly not just recently taken up piping i.e. he hadn't been a novice for at least 20 years. There were at least 2 other pipers in the "Senior Novice" class who CLEARLY weren't novices, as they also competed with grade 3 or 4 bands.

Hmmmmm. :humm: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Now before you go off saying that there may be novice pipers in grade 3 (not likely) or grade 4 (maybe) bands, suffice it to say they didn't belong in the "Senior Novice" class; they were Seniors, but not Novices.

I felt bad for the other competetors in the Senior Novice class who belonged there and played very well but had a snowball's chance in Gehenna of placing; not that many of them seemed to care, as they were there for fun, but C'MON...

Can these guys who compete down a level or two really feel good about taking home a ribbon or medal? I can maybe understand a hypercompetitive Grade 2 or 3 individual who wants to win at any cost competing down a grade (Understand, not condone :p ), but to enter as a ringer in a Senior Novice class????? Hope you're proud of your medals, boys. :p

OK, I'll get off the soapbox and ask my question:
Are there games that have entry restrictions to prevent "novice" player competetors from playing in higher grade solo or band classes? If you're a novice, you shouldn't be good enough to play up and vice-versa, right?

-NHH

[Bob Norris]

Hi,

Its called sandbagging :wink: When I started piping there was one competition called a "Novice piping" It was for anybody any age. I competed in this once before I went to Grade 4 . Anywho,, as I waited my turn other "Novice" pipers squeaked and squawked their way through their tunes. I made my way up to the boards and managed to play 2, 2 part 2/4's without to much trouble. Marching was not required in this class. With one competitor left I felt I had a good chance at winning.
The last competitor came up on the boards and she started off playing a complicated 2/4 and marching back and fourth like Ed Neigh :humm:
I ended up with second that day and was pretty happy with that. Me being me I went up to this person and asked how long they had been playing. The response was "7 years and I play with band X" << Sand bagger!
During the last 2 years since I started competing I have competed against this person many times in grade 4. Showing my weak side I always check to see if I beat "The Sand bagger!" and I have almost every time :banana:

[New Hudson Highlander]

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

:D


-NHH

[Kevin F. Gilstrap]

Having taught piping students for nearly 30 years now, I can say that just because a guy might have owned and played a set of pipes for 20 years, or 30 for that matter, doesn't necessarily always mean that he is anything but a novice piper.

Now, if the guy has been taking first place in the same novice events year after year, then it is the responsibility of the pipe band association to deal with the issue. If it is a non sanctioned games, well, they're non sanctioned games and that's the way that goes.

[Pete Walen]

NHH - Hmmmm - Most games require you to play at the level you are registered in with your home association, if you are in one. If you are registered as a grade 4 soloist in, say the PPBSO or MWPBA, that is the grade you are expected to compete in everywhere, every time. The same thing holds true with Grade 5 soloists. The thing is, some games don't have a grade 5 contest OR they have a "Novice" contest - which becomes the next closest thing to grade 5.

If you were where I suspect you were this weekend, I'd ask you to consider this: An inexperienced player registering for solos, possibly without their instructor's knowledge, may take the rule quite literally and register in their solo grade at a small games. Others may ask nicely if they can play up one grade level, partly to have a harder competition - or in the case of one drummer I know, play the same solo he'd competed with all summer since the requirements were different between his association and the games committee's (person?) rules.

At that same contest, back when I played snare solos, I never played at my registered grade level - I always played up - mostly because I was looking for a harder contest based on contest requirements.

Having said all that, I have an issue with a non-defined "Novice" grade anywhere - games, association, whatever. I also have an issue with the idea of a perpetual "Novice" band grade - which is what Grade 5 was called in a couple of associations before it was relabeled as Grade 5. The only good thing I can see in it, was it pulled all the sea-anchors out of grade 4, and left grade 4 to bands (and soloists) that wanted to try competition at a higher level. The result is that the perpetual "Gee, we almost struck in the drones together. Let's go celebrate our success!" bands (and soloists) clutter up the field for those people who really ARE novices to solo or band competition. (I'm waiting for someone to start pushing for a Grade 6!)

Now then - I have not meant to be devil's advocate at your expense. I can, however, think of a couple of people who took the entry requirements at a very hot and fiarly dusty non-sanctioned games this past weekend very seriously.

Others just don't care and are too lazy to learn some new tune to compete with once or twice a year.

Cheers -

[Donald Ross]

In the games here in the Pacific NW United States (Mostly British Columbia Piper's Association sanctioned) there is a chanter class, grades five through 1, professional, and an "adult" category.

Promotions to a higher grade are handled by the association. The graded amateur categories do not have age restrictions on them, so in grade III solos, I will compete against people close to my skills level, but aged 12 on up to 50 years old. My understanding is that you cannot go down a grade and once you have moved to grade V, you cannot go back to chanter class.

I do know a gentleman who used to compete in Grade II solos who entered this year in the adult category. He swept the events all summer long since most of the adults in that category were what I would call novice skill level.

The reason I do not have a problem with that is these novice adults could always easily have entered in the grade V contests instead of adult and they would have been pitted against other beginner level players. Basically, the adult category was created as a sort of non-competitive competition category (kind of an oxymoron) for adults who have been playing a while, or are adult beginners, and are not professional, but do not want to play against beginners who are 10 years old either.

Bottom line, if you enter adult amateur category, there is potentially a large spectrum of skill levels there and you never know what you will be up against (kind of like the novice category you described).

At the Oregon Piper's society mini-gatherings during the winter, once you enter in a graded amateur class, you cannot enter in "adult" anymore.

NHH, I would say, based on what I describe above, that the solution to the problem you describe is to have solo grades 5 through 1 and pro, (G5 would be the novice grade) and grading determined by the association (not the piper), and then implement this "adult" non-graded category for folks who are not into the medals or progressing through the grades, but would like to get judges comments and participate in the solo events. It works great over here.

[MacDhughaill]

What if you have a piper that has been playing for say 20 years and is really good, but never competed. Then they decide to give competition a try, would they not have to enter the association in a grade 4, when in reality they play at a higher level but just never competed? I would think that they might breeze through grade 4 rather easily.

[SerialKilter.]

Hey CorkPiper. Thats in interesting question. I am kinda in this boat. I have been playing for about 11 years and have only competed 3 times, taking a 2nd and 2 first. I just received a comp number from wuspba last week for the first time. Im not much into comp but I thought I would try it out. Im more of a performer then anything.

Anyway, The reasons I have even competed all are different. I simply wanted to see where I was at in comparison to other pipers. Basically just to "check in" with my skill level and see where I am at and what I need to work on. I think that I was very comparable to that of other pipers in my grade. Im just not much of a competitor but I will check in from time to time. I hope thats ok

The time I took second well let me tell you. The guy who beat me was a crap load better and seemed he should have been in grade 2.

[Willie Morrison]

I saw this happen this summer, at an unsanctioned games here in Ontario.
Pipers playing in the advanced competition and then playing in the intermediate level against a
lot of 'nwebies'. I would rather be a small fish in a big pond, than vice versa.
I was really put off by a select few of these pipers.
It really takes the heart out of a beginner that has been practising like crazy with the hope of at least placing , and ending up at the bottom of the pile, because of pipers that should have had the consideration to play against their peers from the outset!

Thanks for letting me vent ;-)

Cheers,

Willie

[Bruce Wright]

Originally posted by New Hudson Highlander:
Now before you go off saying that there may be novice pipers in grade 3 (not likely) or grade 4 (maybe) bands, suffice it to say they didn't belong in the "Senior Novice" class; they were Seniors, but not Novices.
It depends a bit on how you define "novice" - I agree that very few (if any) true "novice" pipers would be capable of competing in a Grade 3 band. I have known one piper who was competing with a Grade 3 band after having taken up the practice chanter less than a year before - this is very unusual, but he really only knew the band set, he just played it very well (for a relative novice). He might not have done nearly so well playing solo competitions which are a somewhat different animal - still considering how quickly he was able to progress, I would have thought it unsporting for him to have played in Novice class - he would be better placed in Grade 4 solo. I remember when I ran into him I could hardly believe he'd been playing such a short time but his P/M assured me that that was the case.

It's much more believable for a relatively novice piper to compete in a Grade 4 band in the Quick March competition, depending on the band and their QMM selection etc. Medleys would probably be more of a problem for most novices. There are a number of Grade 4 bands who have no associated Grade 5 band, so any novice pipers wind up as members of the Grade 4 band by default - they just may not compete with them very often at first, and as noted above the QMM might allow some of them to compete with the band quite a bit sooner than they could compete in the medley. Still, if a piper has progressed enough to be able to compete with a band (even in a Grade 5 band contest), they're really getting past the skill level the Novice event was intended to address.

So I do agree that many players who have been playing a while (particularly as a competing member in a competitive band) would not belong in a Novice solo competition and they should be leaving that to true novices. Though as someone else noted, mere longevity on the pipes doesn't mean that the piper has progressed past the Novice stage.

At least at one time the recommendation for the Novice piping or Practice chanter competition was that you could not have played in a Grade 4 or higher solo competition nor ever competed as a piper with a band (of any grade) - however since this is an unsanctioned event it's nearly impossible to enforce it. Even if it's not explicitly stated in the rules, I would feel it would be unsportsmanlike for a piper to go against that recommendation.

--Bruce

[PiperToo]

My first compettion was an unsanctioned novice event. I was very intimidated by the line of 8 year olds all trying to play Scotland the Brave. I played stuff that was not so difficult but I knew I could play it well. Then after me came these two old guys who seemed like they had been piping forever. One played not so great and the last one whipped off something that - to me at the time - sounded pretty good. I felt like I had done my best and might place in the top 4 or 5. When I won first I was amazed. Later people told me that they had listened and that the old guys were snadbaggers for sure. One of them had placed 3rd. (I think 2nd was taken by a kid who also played very well) I suppose the judge saw fit to give 1st to someone who was obviously a novice. (I had been on my pipes about 6 months at the time) But sometimes I wonder if I really played the best. I think it's easy to understimte ones own playing. I'm not terribly realistic with myself sometimes.

Anyway, this is all to say that I have seen some of what y'll are talking about. The same pipers entering the same competitions year-in and year-put just to win the same old medal against a bunch of newbies. I remember the next year when they changed the rules to sanctioned and the two old guys had to play in grade IV Sr. with the rest of us and got creamed.

Ahhh yesssss.... cold is best :D

Virginia

[KitchenPiper]

Originally posted by CorkPiper:
What if you have a piper that has been playing for say 20 years and is really good, but never competed. Then they decide to give competition a try, would they not have to enter the association in a grade 4, when in reality they play at a higher level but just never competed? I would think that they might breeze through grade 4 rather easily. This is a great question...

This is where I'm at. I started piping almost 10 years ago, but never once competed. I took a couple of years off from piping when I went back to school and have started up again. For the first time since I began, I've decided to compete. My main intention is to just force myself to play more and to regain some discipline. My teacher says I could probably compete in either grade 3 or grade 4, but suggests I start in grade 4 since I've never competed and would be a good starting point to get used to the whole thing. Also, for years I've focused on mainly jigs, hornpipes and reels... I know only a couple of Strathspeys and can't play through a single 2/4 march as of yet. Since I never intended to compete, I never thought twice about this. Now that's changed. I'm looking at starting up next season at the Queen Marry so I have a lot to work on until then. To be honest, I don't know how I will do and I'm not expecting to even place, however, if I do, I would hope that people would not get upset with me or label be a "Sandbagger".

Any thoughts?

I should add... I've never focused on Competition Marches. I've been playing 3/4, 4/4, and 6/8 marches since the beginning. I also have a huge list of Slow Marches/Airs that I play as well. I just really like Jigs and Hornpipes the best so I put a lot of time into those tunes.