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HotScot
08-17-2005, 08:58 AM
AHHHHHHH!!! I just looked at myself playing my pipes last night & I've developed the dreaded frog neck. I've been playing about 8 years & never noticed it until now. Any other ladies out there with this? I thought just the guys did this. :eek:

ChickaDee
09-11-2005, 10:24 PM
I am glad to report that I do not have the dreaded 'frog neck'. To quote my PM, he could blow my reed with his nose!!

I was watching the 78th Frasers practice last month prior to the Worlds and took this picture.


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/ChickaDee569/Stuff_misc/P0002991.jpg

*Edit-Fix link*

kaypiob
09-11-2005, 10:31 PM
That looks so painful! And more like a goiter than anything. Wow... I don't know what else to say :lol:.

Atisha
09-12-2005, 04:54 AM
:eek: :eek: :wow: :eek: :eek:

If there is a special obscure blowing technique to prevent this, please tell me immediately; I sure as hell don't want to look like THAT when playing...

No, seriously, is there any medical explanation for this? Will there be tissue damage? Isn't it painful? I've never seen such a case of frog neck...

Karl Chang
09-12-2005, 07:01 AM
After playing for long time periods, I sometimes feel that the air is not going down to the pipes but through my skin along the throat. Then I immediately stop and pause for a while. I don't know if this is a symptom but it seems as if it doens't hurt.

Several top pipers in Germany have huge necks and never talk about the pain.

:humm:

Margaret
09-12-2005, 08:10 AM
Maybe you should practice playing like Dizzy Gillespie, he is at least even when he blows, his cheeks look like balloons, but evenly distributed! :idea:

Margaret

Phil Lenihan
09-12-2005, 08:59 AM
To me it looks like something is damaged. Grab your self by the throat and to me it all seemed to be somewhat solid, no spaces. If I had that I would seek medical attention.

Cheers! PHIL

Dave R
09-12-2005, 09:57 AM
Hi all,

Just to be controversial.....

Wouldn't it just be easier to use slightly weaker reeds? :shrug:

Or is it a man thing....My reeds are harder than yours.... :wave:
Dave R

TKW
09-12-2005, 10:53 AM
Best guess is that this is an external laryngocoele, a congenital lesion of the larynx seen occasionally in woodwind and trumpet players. These are very small at first, but get enlarged from the increased pressure of blowing. Less likely diagnoses are branchial cleft cyst and arterio-venous malformation.

Stig Bang-Mortensen
09-12-2005, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by TKW:
Best guess is that this is an external laryngocoele, a congenital lesion of the larynx seen occasionally in woodwind and trumpet players. These are very small at first, but get enlarged from the increased pressure of blowing. Less likely diagnoses are branchial cleft cyst and arterio-venous malformation. Can you do that in english :confused: :)

I look like a horny bull-frog myself and are therefore interested in knowing why.

rowdy ronald piper
09-12-2005, 12:13 PM
In the words of the great Arnold," It's not a tumor."
But I do wonder if he might explode if he had a slightly harder reed? :wow:
And have any of you ever noticed Jim McGillvray's neck swell to about twice normal size when he plays?

South Africanpiper VG
09-13-2005, 06:05 AM
I think medical attention would be quite important in your plans at the present.On a similar vein I often wondered when I was learning pipes "way back when" why bagpipers had big stomachs... then i found out it was beer.

Jim H
09-13-2005, 01:11 PM
Larynx malformation or arterial/venous aneurysm, thats not good. I would really seek help with that. Im pretty new to piping so I dont know this... how common is it?

Jim Fogelman
09-14-2005, 12:16 PM
You get used to it.

I don't know how long I've had it, but it's worse on trumpet than on pipes for me.

TKW
09-14-2005, 12:56 PM
>it's worse on trumpet than on pipes for me.

Most likely due to the fact that the intra-laryngeal and intra-thoracic pressure generated by blowing a trumpet is greater than that which occurs when playing the pipes, even with a hard reed.

I believe the trumpet requires more pressure to sound than any other instrument to sound, including other brass instruments. I don't know how the pressure generated by playing the pipes compares with playing other members of the woodwind family, but I suspect is very similar.

ClosetPiper
09-15-2005, 04:10 AM
TKW Wrote:
I don't know how the pressure generated by playing the pipes compares with playing other members of the woodwind family, but I suspect is very similar.I believe the pipes requires more pressure -
As comparison, I'm a capable clarinet player, and have played around with both the oboe & alto sax.
As a pipe newbie (3 drones open since the end of June), I've commented to many a friend, I thought I was full of "hot air" ( :woohoo: )!!

TKW
09-15-2005, 10:53 AM
>I believe the pipes requires more pressure -
>As comparison, I'm a capable clarinet player, and have played around with both the oboe & alto sax.

A few years ago, some ophthalmologists at the Tufts University School of Mediicine investigated the effect on intra-ocular pressure of 'high resistance' wind instruments and 'low resitance' wind instruments as compared to non-wind instruments (the control group).

In the study,
'high resistance' group : trumpet, oboe
'low resistance' instruments : clarinet, sax

No mention of what type saxaphone was studied. My guess would be that the pipes are a closer fit to the low resistance group, but no pipe players were
studied.

Olgierd
09-16-2005, 07:54 AM
Do you know what the results were?

Cheers

The Scottish Piper
09-16-2005, 02:35 PM
I get the frog neck when I play but nothing like that guy. I feel sorry for him it has GOT to be painful. It looks like something that should have been on the X-Files. Of course, I have the frog neck BEFORE I start blowing. :shrug:

LaureeP

Jeanne
09-18-2005, 03:37 PM
Possibly some people are more vulnerable to "frog neck" than others, but your best chance of avoiding it is to make sure that you are using your diaphragm and abdominal muscles instead of neck/throat etc. I can stand in front of a mirror and tell whether I am using my abs/diaphragm properly or not, just by the degree of neck distention while piping. Good luck - that does not look/sound like a comfortable condition.

ladypiper47
09-18-2005, 05:50 PM
TKW
How did you come up with a/v malformation as a differential diagnosis for 'frog neck' since the former is a vascular problem?

Stig Bang-Mortensen
09-18-2005, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Jeanne:
Possibly some people are more vulnerable to "frog neck" than others, but your best chance of avoiding it is to make sure that you are using your diaphragm and abdominal muscles instead of neck/throat etc. I can stand in front of a mirror and tell whether I am using my abs/diaphragm properly or not, just by the degree of neck distention while piping. Good luck - that does not look/sound like a comfortable condition. It has nothing to do with using your diaphram or not. I have been using my diaphragm now for 30 years and do have a frog neck. The frog neck is, in my case anyway, always soft and squeezable, thus indicating that the frog neck is not actively involved in the blowingprocess. My FN is more even than the one on the picture though. Itīs a little tricky to buy white shirts that will be used for playing. Imagine the looks you get from the people in the shop when I ask for a ridicolously large collarsize. The looks get even worse when I inflate to show them why I need the size :D
One good thing about it is that it doesnīt hurt at all.

Jeanne
09-21-2005, 05:37 PM
Well, at least it doesn't hurt! :) Actually, that's a pretty good thing. Obviously I was a little bit off on this one - the only reason that I guessed that diaphragm might have anything to do with it was that when I'm not using mine properly, my neck distends quite a bit, but uniformly so.

I suppose we could all wear neck braces, but since I hear a combined scream of protest and hilarity - and a few profane comments - yeah, I hear you guys - I guess I'll drop that idea... :lol: :lol:

TKW
09-28-2005, 10:39 AM
>How did you come up with a/v malformation as a differential >diagnosis for 'frog neck' since the former is a vascular problem?

I didn't. The differential diagnosis that I gave was for the very obvious but very well defined and localised swelling on the side of the neck of the piper in the picture. I think the term 'frog neck' refers to quite a different phenomenom or condition, the generalised swelling of the anterior neck that is seen in some people playing a wind instrument. The piper in the picture did not show 'frog neck.'

Tartaniac
09-29-2005, 02:01 AM
So what IS frog neck? Hot Scot...shoot us a photo.

(I am soooooo glad I'm a drummer...i just have screws in my elbows.)

David Corbett
09-29-2005, 07:56 AM
What about a really snug.. turtleneck..or just the Dickie..? Ace Bandage around the neck?

Adam-Baines
09-29-2005, 02:19 PM
I don't think that a turtle neck would keep my neck down, that thing is powerful. That's me in the picture up there. To answer some questions: NO, IT'S NOT A TUMOR!!
No it's not painful when I blow from my diaphragm. When I blow else where it hurts like crazy. It feels as if my cheek is pulling away from my jaw. I've learned to control my blowing around to avoid that problem.
Why does it happen? I have no idea what so ever. All I know is that I've been playing for 11 years and it has been doing it as long as I can remember.

Thanks for the picture Chick a Dee, what a laugh

Josh Whitson
06-29-2008, 08:08 AM
So this thread is really old I know, but as a fellow "frog necker" I'm also looking for people with a similar condition so I don't feel alone. :lol:

As for me, my throat expands evenly on both sides (which I'm thankful for, the one-side thing is probably worse!). I'm not sure when this started, but I've only been playing for about 5 years, and noticed it about 2 years ago. I played a fairly hard reed at the time but have since switched to softer reeds. It doesn't hurt in the slightest, just looks ridiculous. It usually doesn't seem very noticeable at all when I'm in uniform, but if I'm playing in a t shirt I can be sure to get comments about it.

JBGriffith
07-29-2008, 07:53 PM
Like Jim Fogelman, I,too, play trumpet. I have been playing for a very long time (over 50 yrs)and play in a symphony orchestra, as well as lead trumpet in a jazz band for the last 30 yrs. Thankfully, I've not yet developed the "frog neck" condition. Now, playing the bagpipes may bring it on. Since I've been piping only for the last three years, it's probably too early to tell. I'm hoping that the "conditioning" I've received over the years from the trumpet may have prevented this.

BTW, an old friend and fellow trumpet player called Mumbles (Clark Terry) taught me years ago how to get comfortable with rotary , or circular breathing. Now I get to use it while practicing on the PC, too.

Heatherbelle
08-12-2008, 12:35 PM
So this thread is really old I know, but as a fellow "frog necker" I'm also looking for people with a similar condition so I don't feel alone. :lol:

As for me, my throat expands evenly on both sides (which I'm thankful for, the one-side thing is probably worse!).

I noticed this in someone last week, their neck got really big, both sides. I found myself pondering what's happening there in the neck at such times. I was wondering how would the trachea being full of air, cause the sides of the neck to expand? Or is it that it's the muscles in the neck (which are being used while playing), which are expanded, like the arm ones do when doing exercise?

Why do some people get it and not others??

Josh Whitson
08-12-2008, 03:00 PM
I could be mistaken, but from research I believe the condition is referred to as laryngocels. In the case of laryngocels on both sides of the neck, which protrude outward and become visible (as opposed to inward), they are referred to as external bilateral laryngocels. Apparently, this happens among musicians that play high pressure instruments such as the trumpet or bagpipes. Essentially I believe it is the stretching of the esophagus due to high pressure. Some things can help cause this, such as a hard reed, but there really is no definite conclusion on how much pressure will cause the condition. Some people can play hard reeds all of their life and never have it, others can play soft reeds and have the "frog neck" develop.

Luckily, laryngocels seem to be completely harmless unless they become infected, which is about the same chance of anything else becoming infected in the body, or begin to hurt which also seems rare.

pyper
08-17-2008, 07:39 PM
I have Frog Neck too.
:-Ī* People really notice it. The only thing that bothers me is that it touches my bass drone stock. :(

piperchik
08-29-2008, 02:36 AM
[quote=ChickaDee] To quote my PM, he could blow my reed with his nose!!

Ha ha ha... thats what my PM says about my reed... they think they're funny dont they?!! only thing thats funny is that he has a frogs neck like the guy in the picture when he plays! :roflmao: im more of a cheek puffer myself, much 2 my husbands amusement :bleh: