Death grip problems

[Olgierd]

Hi all,

I am trying to teach a friend of mine some basics on the PC.
(Our tutor who is away for the moment told me to do that, and then he will come and check the progress).

Anyways - the guy has the famous death grip problem, altough he's been learning for a year now.
His fingers are so stiff that it is virtually imposible for him to make more complex embellishemnts fluidly.
He can change notes and do do basic gracenotes + light Thr D (albeit slowly).
Doublings, grips, taorluaths etc are out of the question right now.

He still can't play Scots Wha Hae (1st tune) and keep the proper rythm and tempo.

I have tried everything that comes to my mind:
- telling him to rest the chanter on the table or knee - he says it's not comfortable for him,
- making him play with the thumb of the low hand lifted from the chanter to show that he does not need to grip the chanter very tight,
- telling him to visualize the "glazed turd",
- showing him how my fingers are placed and how light I'm gripping the PC
- telling him do do warm ups and warm fingers in hot water

But the problem still persists. I think it is related to the following factors:
1. His age? He's about 40.
2. He claims to be very nervous while playing for public (me included). Honestly I don't know why - I am offering positive encouragement, but on the other hand do not let the errors slip by.
3. Lack / inefficient practice? He says he's practising, but the progress is very small indeed.

I am at a loss...
What shall I do to eliminate the death grip?


Cheers

[The Wandering Piper Girl]

I also have the problem of holding my chanter with the death grip. I am always worried that I am going to drop the thing or that it's gonna turn while I'm playing.

[Redscot]

Try sitting NEXT to him insted of across from him. a wee dram 20 minutes before a lesson helps as well.
Worked for me...
Cheers,
Russ

[Doug Walton]

Try beating him about the head and shoulders - that will relax his grip somewhat, and his playing may improve.

[Frank W]

Something my instructor showed me awhile back that helped a lot; have him rest the chanter on the table or knee and play the scale with his bottom thumb off the chanter. Once he can do this have him move to simple grace notes etc.. My probelm as well as I think most beginners, was the pressure I was appling with my bottom thumb as well as thumb positsion. I also had a problem with my chanter rolling when I started to get tired so I started gripping the mouth piece with my teeth instead of lips. Having more control relaxed the hands as well.

Frank

[Stuart Barr]

I'm sorry, I don't buy that resting the chanter on the table is "not comfortable" for him. He needs to do it, and his fingers will relax. Don't give him the option. It will become second nature over time.

I also rest the chanter against the bottom of a heavy folder on the table, so that the chanter doesn't try to slip away from me. Then I don't need to really grip the chanter so much. The old "no thumbs" technique really worked for me too. If I find I'm overgripping, I still do it today just to relax.

But, he will really only relax the grip when he no longer needs to work so hard at playing. So, more practice!

It's not his age. 40?! Sheesh. May as well just shoot him? :humm: :p Nah, I learned at 38, and got over it. I don't buy that either.

And, sure, he's nervous. He's human. As soon as he's spent more hours, he will get better, and will learn to relax.

Summary: PC up on table, no thumbs. And beat on him with simple stuff.

Good luck :hatoff:

Stuart

[Jan]

Check his thumb position. Is he using the pad of his thumbs or the sides as he should be? Using the pads on the chanter twists the wrists into an awkward position.
Also check the wrist position. Is his wrist in the proper gently curved position (as in giving a hug) or is it bent almost 90 degrees downward, looking stiff and uncomfortable? This bent wrist will stiffen his fingers and not allow fluidity.

Another trick is to tape a few thumbtacks to the back of the chanter, pin pointing out. See how tight he holds the chanter then!! :wow:

Finally remind him that he should feel the chanter "sing" (vibrate) under his fingers while he is playing. If he doesn't, he is holding it to tightly.

[Melissa Bautz]

I must echo Stuart Barr's comment. I make all my students play with the sole of the practice chanter on the table or the student's knee or leg. Never up in the air. I would demand that this student begin doing that.

That coupled with the removal of the lower hand's thumb from the chanter should at least help this student.

Melissa

[Bfd389piper]

I would suggest that just before he lift the chanter have im place both hands palm down flat on the table, and lift his fingers up and down as if he were doing "runs" down the chanter not for technique but for loosening them up a bit, try to check to see that his arms are relaxed his wrists are relaxed (palms just layed flat, without being held tense.. let hims then shake his hands out and vigerously, then have him lift the chanter, place a couple of books under the sole so that the chanter is tilted back towards his mouth in a layed back relaxed way, and check his grip with his fingers in place, with thumb and forefinger (yours) try to turn the chanter left to right or right to left and try to show and explain his grip should be loose enough to allow YOU to move the chanter a little...with out it kicking out and away from his mouth of course.. show him how relaxed he should be... IF he is so embarrassed to Play (screw up) in front of you, stand away from the table at that point and out of his line of sight
(behind him but so you can hear him play (and screw up) :lol: when you show him an embellishment say a D throw, Play out the notes for him to hear, slowly.. Beep bopp dee daaaa and for now Its better he play each embellishment so slow that its like the melody are grace notes while the grace notes are whole notes almost... its more important he slowy play themand screw up the song, rather then play the song and screw up the embellishments.... each person is differant so have trouble doing this or that.. His is confidence and maybe "Mason's fingers" if he practices and gets support and help, he might play scot's wa hae right in 2 weeks maybe never... I know guys wh have issues because they dont happen to be of scottish decsent and have never heard the tune , he might play a mean "Elvis"s love me tender though...
Breakthroughs come is all sorts of weird places and times too, differant for differant folks.... do whatever it takes to loosen him up , tell hi no more excuses, Play note for note with him, leave the room , (seemingly) watch him through a window .. Tell him the magic finger fairy isnt going to play them for him that he needs to get some place..Play some pipe music to him, Like Scot's wa hae... this is what it sounds like take him to some games Inspire him to try harder but more relaxed manner
when you see him clinching the chanter, move and touch his arms or wrists and see just how tense he is... if you make him aware he could stop, when he gets tense stop him and do my loosening exercises....
and begin again.... :)

[Bfd389piper]

if all else fails use the books under the sole and tell him to rest his elbows on the table as well,,, tell him he might break the chanter in half.. tooo....lol

[Weeble]

Originally posted by Olgierd:

I am at a loss...
What shall I do to eliminate the death grip?There's nothing YOU can do. He's the one who needs to do something about it. I would tell him to call you back once he learnes to relax his hands and lessons will resume after that.

[John Chambers]

I think Stuart said it best. I had the same problem, as do most beginners (or so I understand).

Having started playing at a young 58 years of age, I'm sure it isn't his old age!

[Frank W]

Originally posted by Weeble:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by Olgierd:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
I am at a loss...
What shall I do to eliminate the death grip?There's nothing YOU can do. He's the one who needs to do something about it. I would tell him to call you back once he learnes to relax his hands and lessons will resume after that. </span></div></div>Wow, aren't you the patient one. I think he realizes it's his problem all he wants are suggestions that he could pass along to help overcome this problem. :shrug:

[Weeble]

Originally posted by Olgierd:
Hi all,


I have tried everything that comes to my mind:
- telling him to rest the chanter on the table or knee - he says it's not comfortable for him,
- making him play with the thumb of the low hand lifted from the chanter to show that he does not need to grip the chanter very tight,
- telling him to visualize the "glazed turd",
- showing him how my fingers are placed and how light I'm gripping the PC
- telling him do do warm ups and warm fingers in hot waterI would say that Olgierd pretty much exhausted the tips, tricks and techniques with this student (as he should) and instructors who think they can somehow impart the ability to play sans a students desire and disciplne are misleading. I am quite patient w/ my students but we part ways once the whining starts and the at-home practice has obviously ceaced.

- telling him to rest the chanter on the table or knee - he says it's not comfortable for him.IMO, therein lies the real problem.

[ratherbpiping]

"I'm sorry, I don't buy that resting the chanter on the table is "not comfortable" for him"

I find with a full length chanter it can be uncomfortable to put the chanter on the table. I prefer my knee, either way, the chanter should be supported.

I have several students with this problem of nervousness, and while I agree with a previous poster that the problem is the students, they need to practice more so they are not nervous, as a teacher, you need to find a way to help them feel relaxed.

IT seems some people find me intimidating, until they get to kow me. I have no idea why but do make great efforts to overcome this. Sometimes, you can only go so far though.

I think the problem is 90% nerves. 85% of which would be relieved by more self practice, and 5% by starting the prace sesion with joke.

[MacBubba]

If the "full length" ("long," "vertically enhanced") chanter is too long to be comfortable setting on the table, have him sit on a phone book or extra pillow. Setting the chanter on your knee is a favorite trick of students in a group or members in a band to be just a little bit quieter to hide mistakes.

[windsaloft]

Originally posted by Olgierd:
Hi all,

I am trying to teach a friend of mine some basics on the PC.
(Our tutor who is away for the moment told me to do that, and then he will come and check the progress).
Ah-HA, herein lies the problem. Never teach a friend or your spouse anything. You need to be an impartial, unquestioned god of the bagpipes, not his buddy so he will do what you tell him without questioning..... :wink: (BIG smiley face for joking post.....)

[Olgierd]

Thanks for your input. :shrug:


Cheers

[Weeble]

Originally posted by Mike Miller:
"I'm sorry, I don't buy that resting the chanter on the table is "not comfortable" for him"That's exactly right Mike. This is an excuse and a veiled request of the student to somehow "teach me without me actually having to do any work." I'm not bashing anyone here, but for so many beginners (and adult beginners mostly - not always mind you, but many times) the bagpipe is merely a "new toy" and the PC is viewed as an impediment to the real thing rather than the primary most necessary tool required to achieve musicianship.

[MikeNomad]

Most tension is in the head and simply shows itself in the hands, back or in mouthpiece biting . Telling a person to relax when tense is like telling them to be happy, sad, or angry on command. It won't always work. They can pretend to, but that might not let them in on actually feeling relaxed.
If your friend is actually trying, you might go with pairing anything he does loose (like a simple scale) with the grip stuff and alternate many times. An Inner Game of Music technique is to have him simply be aware of and focus on the tension and have him rate it on a 1 - 10 scale without judging or fearing it. Through ongoing review this awareness is supposed to really help with many musician's difficulties. He may be a private learner who needs to try these on his own and come back to each lesson for review.
Good luck.

[Canalpiper]

getting the end of the chanter on a table, book, knee or whatever is important. it will go a long way in helping relieve of his need to hold up the chanter. Also a ruubbery end on his mouthpiece may help also. the ability to "bite" a little more will add stability to the chanter.
one other thing you may try.
when I was first learning the chanter, I commented to my instuctor that the bottm hand would be more comfortable (ergonomicly) if there was a "Thumb spacer" on so you could hold it with your hand a bit more open. he told me I'd get used to it and reinforced the chanter on the table idea. when I mentioned this to an instuctor last week He immediately asked if I got the "piping times". I said No,Why?. he said that there was recently an article about a "thumb rest" in the piping times. you may want to look up that article.
Mike Z

[Richard Mao]

Hi, sorry.... just now noticed this thread...

much good advice so far...

let's add the mental dimension .... the Zen of bagpiping..... as a supplemental approach...

Can your student play slow scales with relaxed hands?
=================================
(If not.... have him play just one note e.g. loA and calibrate his hand pressure as follows: lift/ease up all and each the fingers so that the chanter is no longer embedded in the flesh..... and keep going on each finger until air is finally leaking out (in?) around the finger/flesh changing the note...

Then.... have him marginally increase finger pressure to JUST sound the note reliably... It should feel to him like a light touch.

Now... ask him to monitor/memorize the hand pressure of low A.... and now change to/blow B.... the finger/note is not as important... as the ability to maintain the hand pressure previously memorized.... and so on until he consistently blows a consistent pressure low scale)

===============

Now if/that he can blow a slow scale at easy blowing AND HAND/FINGER pressure.... have him transfer the execution/maintenance of that low pressure to his SUBCONSCIOUS/muscle memory.... by repeating the scale up and down and letting his conscious-controlling-the-pressure-mind DRIFT/WAFT away into the clouds.... NEVER letting the mind reassume control of the fingers.... BUT allowing the mind to MONITOR the finger pressure and rejoice/revel in the even light pressure...

Next.... have him increase the tempo of his scales.... (shortening the notes) and keep monitoring the pressure/tension of his mind and fingers.... and if you(the instructor)/he perceives the return of iron hand..... take a deep breath and relax the pressure achieved after each note change.... and take a gentle change from a note to the next note. and then go back to increasing the tempo... (The important thing is for the student's MIND's primarily responsibility to be maintaining the easy touch... NOT moving the fingers for the next note... AND to biofeedback/respond to undesirable increases in iron hand/tension/pressure both physical and mental with immmmmmmmeeeeeeediate cessation of more pressure and return to even keel of low pressure)

(the object here is to transfer all hand motion to the subconscious muscle memory and use the brain/conscious to monitor and maintain the light pressure.... the reason for scales to start with is I don't want the student to start diverting his conscious attention to actual finger movements .... i.e. stay with no-brainer scales.... or else as soon as the mind starts thinking what is the next note of this tune... the hands start tensing up...)

The next stage after scales is Dthrow scales (every other note a dthrow, or from each note of the scale to a dthrow)... birl scales, hiA scales, taorluath/grip scales (two ways, every note to an A taorluath, then A taorluath A, B taorluath B, etc... C Grip to C, E grip to E, etc...)... and start slowly and capture maintain the easy pressure and mind set and PROVE to himself he can do all of these moves without FORCING his fingers to move it...

Now... sloowly.... if/while he's doing one of his scales in the easy frame of mind mode.... transition gently into the phrase of a well memorized tune (one that he has achieved the ability to play out of his subconscius memory).... slowly/schmaltzy.... the important thing is to keep the mental/physical even keel... and to return to the physical "mantra" of the scales whenever his conscious mind perceives the return of "iron hand".

In a subsequent iteration of the tune... allow the tune to become "perkier" in tempo.... but STILL the emphasis for the student is to monitor his "iron hand" tendency.... and to immediately reprogram/return to the Zen scales if/whenever he senses himself/his fingers tensing up... and recapture that "loving" feeling and then return to the tune... (BTW I agree with Mike's citation of Tim Gallweys Inner Game of... Tennis and Inner Game of Music books, they are very valuable)

Olgierd, for a student with this persistent problem.... both YOU, the instructor, and THE STUDENT.... need to have patience and INVEST a lot of time in classes .... YOU can tell when the student is getting tense.... be his external bio-monitor and ease him back down...

Until he starts to do this automatically.... don't expect to teach him new tunes... or you will divert/ruin the resources/rapport he is trying to achieve with his fingers...

Does every student need this... No... many students can skip or never need any of the above exercises... But if you truly have tried all this stuff (remember Peking Piper's Law of instruction.... If it ain't working for you.... try something else) ... you skip the above steps at your student's peril.

Once you undertake the job assignment of a teacher, and the student signs up to accept your guidance as an instructor.... Everything has to work... A teacher and the student has to do his respective job without getting lazy, or angry, or frustrated...

Best wishes

If you have the slightest touch of masochism, you'll love learning bagpipes. I think we're all a little masochistic, otherwise, why would we continue to play?

Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[ScotDrumr]

Richard - awesome.

Okay- who's got the Zen of drumming!

Ron

[Richard Mao]

OK.

Having read that this student is still on Scot's Wha Hae.... I ain't done yet...

(I might modify the approach a bit if he knew more tunes)...

First let's get multi-sensory with the student...
get him connected to our music via multiple paths...

If you call a note... can he form the fingers and blow the note.... (his speed of response is not the issue.... calm recall is your goal)... do this a lot... watch for iron hand and call him on it...

Get out the music staff paper.... have him write out Scot's Wha Hae .... with the goal of memorizing/visualizing the entire tune and being able to write it out from memory....

Make a set of bagpipe music flash cards.... (or buy them from Carolyn Watts... author of Is It Supposed to Sound Like That? Boisepiper@earthlink.net)... and parallel track him to recognize and call off notes, and note values, and doublings as apply to Scot's Wha Hae...

Make him call off the notes (first) and then the notes with the gracings first cut... by reading from the music but ultimately by memory (all of this is to give him a way to memorize and recite the tune WITHOUT using his death-grip hands).... of Scot's Wha Hae... while YOU play the notes he is calling... (this gives HIM control of his lesson, not feeling helpless victim)

(either have him call the notes or onomatopoeia/chanting/scat singing is ok... e.g. sing A for the A note with out a grace.... chaaay for the A note with a g grace.... so Scot's Wha Hae starts... chay bee chay geee chay bee throw [btw, you ARE teaching this particular student the light throw, aren't you?]...... ideally have him sing an approximately correct pitch so the sound of the musical melody is in his head.... don't let him be embarrassed... pointing out to him you can't play a loud instrument like the bagpipes in the closet.... he WILL be playing in front of more people eventually... eventually have him sing for the same as the approximate note values.... or at least exaggerate clearly the longs and shorts... [I definitely like the dot cut version of Scot's Wha Hae for teaching compared to the current COP 6/8 version])

Teach him and have him memorize the words to Scot's Wha Hae.... and recite it to you.... got a Corries Album? one of them has a great Scot's Wha Hae version.

OK, does he have it by memory a couple of different ways.... On the practice chanter.... MAKE HIM TEACH/DEMONSTRATE the fingering of each note TO YOU... as if YOU were the student.... first with him not blowing... just demonstrating in succession the finger positions of the tune... then blowing....

this approach will make him know the music in his head and heart a couple of different ways.... To the degree iron hands is a symptom of lack of self confidence.... knowing the tune a couple of different ways.... should give him the absolute familiarity to over come this.

If this don't work.... I've got more...

Good luck

If you have the slightest touch of masochism, you'll love learning bagpipes. I think we're all a little masochistic, otherwise, why would we continue to play?

Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[Melissa Bautz]

I love your (above) ideas Richard. I'm not the original poster...just listening (reading) in.

BTW, "Scots Wha Hae" is on the Corries' "Silver Collection" CD. I "make" most of my beginners listen to it at least once!
Melissa

[Olgierd]

Thx Richard,

The problem with he guy is that he can do the separate notes, simple gracings, etc.
He recognizes the written score and if I tell him to blow e.g loA he does it correctly (although slowly and with death grip).

What mystifies me is that he can sing many Scottish songs (in fact he's quite a good singer). And he can sing them pretty well (SWH included).

But he just can't play them. Somehow he just can't make a connection between the fingers and the music.

Anyways, I'll try what you suggested next time I see him and se what comes out of it.

Cheers

[Richard Mao]

Originally posted by Olgierd:
Thx Richard,

The problem with he guy is that he can do the separate notes, simple gracings, etc.
He recognizes the written score and if I tell him to blow e.g loA he does it correctly (although slowly and with death grip).

What mystifies me is that he can sing many Scottish songs (in fact he's quite a good singer). And he can sing them pretty well (SWH included).

But he just can't play them. Somehow he just can't make a connection between the fingers and the music.

Anyways, I'll try what you suggested next time I see him and se what comes out of it.

Cheers Great, Olgierd... try one thing at a time...


So.... definitely start with the death grip recalibration... Alternative to just easing fingers... start with an untouched practice chanter (supported only by mouth and the sole on a towel on a table so it won't roll)...

gently put the thumb on hi A...getting hi G and lift it off and on...

then .... gently, put the G finger down in a sooooooft pinch... getting an F.... and then do soft F, hiG, hiA.... mini scales with the soft pressue...

then from the F position... add the F finger .... softly to get an E... and then run mini-scales, E, F, HiG, hiA... (all with the low hand off the practice chanter).... etc.

====================

Don't let his success in singing mystify you.... get him to make the connection.... point out the similarities between how he can successfully sing... to how he could capture that feeling and successfully dance with fingers.... conduct with fingers.... i.e.

Does he sing with tension? does he sing scots wha hae by memory? If so.... have him stand up, sing Scots Wha Hae... and imagine waving his hands CONDUCTING an imaginary chorus... and imagine he is using his conducting hands to lead the chorus in a soooooft quiet soothing rendition of Scots Wha Hae... imagine/demonstrate to you what his arms and hands and fingers have to do to go from conducting "loud/boisterous" to "soft/quiet"...

Then have him conduct with his fingers... and capture that delicate feeling.... and play just the first phrase of Scots Wha Hae on the practice chanter.... just as he was conducting the chorus in the diminuendo performance.

(also, in the future.... have him articulate how he learns a new scottish song... how he memorizes it.... how he puts feeling into the music... and have him relate to learning a tune... while dancing with fingers on the practice chanter)

===
I would ask does he play piano or guitar to accompany his singing (if he does.... you GOT HIM because EITHER the piano playing and guitar chords have to come from the subconscious while he's singing OR if he's concentrating on the instrument with his conscious mind... the words/music/singing has to come from the subconscious (like many stutterers can sing beautifully without a stutter because singing goes down different channels of the mind)... and he can't be HAMMERING the piano/guitar)

===========

Folks, and Ogierd.... sorry for being so persistent on this thread.... but I really feel a successful teacher has to be aware of the need to develop alternative tools and approaches to FIND/match the open/responsive channels of learning for different/problem/non-standard/non-average/non-typical students...

so... having never seen this student... I am giving an example of how I would be responding to the observation that he is a singer...

and suggesting what you should openly acknowledge to the student as "head games" attempting to find a channel where the student has had success in the past... to adapt that known methodology to his pursuit of piping...

One of the questions I ask my ADULT students is in your lifetime of school (Primary, secondary, college).... your lifetime of business/working.... to articulate how you've found that YOU/the student learns best.... (aural, visual, etc.)... what kinds of teachers/bosses have you liked/responded to best...

OK, enough of this tirade...

Olgierd, best wishes, good luck...

if you're willing.... I think we'd like to hear about your continuing progress/experiences with this student...

cheers


If you have the slightest touch of masochism, you'll love learning bagpipes. I think we're all a little masochistic, otherwise, why would we continue to play?

Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[Piper_06]

I have been reading this post, not at a teacher, but as a student. I too seem to be having the death grip problem. I can focus on relaxing, but still go back to the hard grip. It is especially bad when I am being watched by my instructor.

One thing that seems to help is using an electronic PC. I originally bought it to practice in the wee hours of the morning, when I am up and the family is not. It increased my practice time. The small size makes it hard to make the death grip.

By the way I just discovered this thread, and I will be an avid reader from now on. Thanks to all of the instructors for sharing your knowledge with us beginners.

[Snooper]

I've always thought it would be a great idea to make a $5 balsa wood chanter for students.

See how many they break before they learn to not grip their chanter too tightly.

Jim Ryan

[Mike K]

Originally posted by The Wandering Piper Girl:
I also have the problem of holding my chanter with the death grip. I am always worried that I am going to drop the thing or that it's gonna turn while I'm playing. I solved my PC turning problem by putting a 1 inch piece of latex surgical tubing over the mouthpiece. Available at most hospital supply stores.

[Olgierd]

Thx Richard and all :hatoff:

I'll definitely try out the ideas and see if they work out.

I'll keep you posted.

[AndrewG]

Is he paying for these lessons??? cause if he IS messing you around drop hints of all the time and money he is wasting and if he is serious he probably will get out of bad habits and practice more.
Also tell him thinks like "if little kids can do this then so can you."