Teaching Steady Blowing

[Andrew Lenz]

Ok, you have a student who is relatively new to the pipes. What do you do to develop steady blowing? Are you a "manometer-type" or an "ear-type" and why?

Andrew

[Atisha]

Just the usual 0.2 cents worth from a student's perspective
The manometer method didn't really work for me.
When I finally got my pipes, I built one from bits and parts commanedeered from my dad's hobby room and hooked it up. I found that the manometer was either too sensitive or the "response-time" was too long (I did experiement with different hose sizes&lenghts), so that I was constantly overcompensating and my steady blow was deteriorating.
When concentrating on the sound of the drones, on the other hand, I was able to relax considerably, and it even got so far that I was able to tell from the vibration of the bag and the drone stocks against my body if my blowing was steady or not...
It also helped develop my tuning skills, and I now have a sense of control over the instrument and its reactions that I don't think I would have gotten from reacting to an outside stimulus.

Once I had gotten the basic principles right, what helped me develop steady-blowing stamina was doing dummy-duty during my teacher's band rehearsal. Also way more fun than "droning off" on your own... :wink:

Cheers, Andrea

[Alex Titus]

Originally posted by Atisha:
The manometer method didn't really work for me.
What is the manometer method? I have never hurd of this.

[Richard Mao]

manometer is for visual bio-feedback... I think Andrea was pointing out.... if you get too mechanical... you might actually get negative feedback loops going...

tuning meter with a microphone positioned over the drones works too... both aurally and visually...

but...suggestions... on method and approch...

first: make sure the relatively new student has developed strength and stamina to blow a good steady hiA for minutes at a time... into the tuning meter if he/she can't hear if it's wavering

second: make sure that the student is filling the bag completely and is not keeping so much arm pressure on the bag that as soon as he/she takes a breath... the bag is collapsing.... i.e. (not) taking advantage of the phenomenon...if you have blown a full bag... when you take a breath... the elasticity of the bag helps you sustain the note.

third: now is the time for exaggerated execution of beautiful slow airs...lingering on the long notes... so the student can hear wavering....as (s)he thinks past the mechanics and embraces/comes to love the music.

cheers

We shouldn’t feel too self important…
I think it is significant that pipers get more applause
when they stop piping . . . than when they start.

Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[CalumII]

I tend to start them off on a single drone, without chanter, and just teach them what they should be trying to achieve (constant arm pressure, etc.). Then I let them go away and practice that for a bit. Then we get the manometer out.

Tuning and blowing control act as a feedback loop: you have to be able to control your blowing in order to tune accurately, and you have to be able to hear your tuning accurately in order to control your blowing. Some people can develop this loop on their own, but many need intervention at one stage of the cycle; how you do that probably depends on the student, but I've found the manometer is the most impressive.

Cheers,
Calum

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by Atisha:
When I finally got my pipes, I built one from bits and parts commanedeered from my dad's hobby room and hooked it up.Andrea, did you ever use a dial manometer or just the water manometer? While a water manometer can be dampened (cotton ball, what have you) a dial manometer builds up no momentum.

Alex, you can visit here:
http://www.bagpipejourney.com/articles/manometer.shtml

Rich, thanks.

Calum, what do you tell your students to shoot for in terms of realistic steadiness? Plus or minus what? +/- 3"? I've heard of a piper who was so steady that on a water manometer, you couldn't even tell it was moving unless you looked very close. On the other hand, a PM of a Grade I band said that he was +/-2". At what point do you consider it "steady blowing"?

Andrew

[Richard Strayer]

Just curious, but have you ever simultaneously gauged pitch change on a meter when using the manometer? What does 2" or 3" of movement equate to in terms of pitch change? Also, would it differ depending on the strength of the reed? I suspect you could get away with more movement on a strong reed than a weak one, before noticing a change in pitch.

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by Richard Strayer:
Just curious, but have you ever simultaneously gauged pitch change on a meter when using the manometer?No, but what you said follows from a harder reed typically being more stable. But I, personally, haven't ever tested it against any type of meter.

Andrew

[Aaron M]

It doesn't take a hole lot to hear a change - use this method to tune without a tuner (great for people learning to do it themselves)...

Once they establish a set point on the manometer where they can play at a comfortable pressure, mark it. Now, they tune their drones (one at a time is easiest), keeping the water at that mark (overblow and it sounds better, the drone goes up, underblow and it sounds better, the drone goes down). Once they are in tune, let the water drop a little and they will hear it go out of tune, and the opposite is true if they overblow.

After playing with it for a little while they will know what it sounds like to overblow or underblow... They will learn a lot from the manometer and it will be their best friend!

:hatoff:

[CalumII]

If I intentionally blow a steady low A, I can get it down to trembling, and I don't think there's any harm in having that as a target - your grade I PM is most likely compensating for his chanter as he plays, which is not unusual - after all, the ultimate aim is to be able to hear a pitch and control your blowing to attain that pitch. Steady blowing is just a means to this end, ultimately.

Cheers,
Calum

[SmiseGander]

I use both auditory, and a cheap tuner ($25.00) too. It gives them something to notice their improvement on, and to help them notice where in their blowing they are most unsteady. I try anything I can find that works for that particular student. I prefer the mechanical tuner, for easy transport,it is always in the pipebox so there isn't any excuse not to pull it out, they can use it later for tuning drones and checking High A/Low A on the chanter so I don't feel bad making them get one more piece of equipment to purchase.

To break the "practice chanter" blowing sydrome is of course our aim. To create this disconnect between blowing for as long as possible and quickly taking a breath, into the relaxed and controlled motion of arm, lungs, and bag is no mean feat and the most difficult thing to teach. Teaching this skill I use all of the methods I can find - drone wiggle in a mirror (or your shadow), tuner watching, listening by me with immediate feedback, recording and playback, and of course listening by the student are all methods I have used depending on the student and what works for them.

Patience and directed encouragement, (as well as a sharp rap on the elbow with a yard stick....((KIDDING)) I suppose are the most important parts of how we teach this all important skill.

'Smise

[Selkirk Pipey]

I launch the steady blowing consciousness immediately after they receive their pipes.

Beginning with the chanter, then adding one drone at a time. For about a month, I encourage them to listen on their own, checking themselves occasionally with a taped session. Then, I have them do it in front of me for another month of lessons, and I give them signals if they're too low or too high. :eek: , frequency of blowing and the effort required, and to monitor "bobbing" drones (they aren't supposed to be jigging for crappies!!). :banana:

[Wulls]

I, as a matter of course, get students to practice in front of a mirror. If they can play with the bass drone steady (still is better) they cannot fail to develop "smooth" blowing.
Otherwise I have not seen any poor advice here......

[McThistle]

Member # 2174
posted June 05, 2006
04:18PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just curious, but have you ever simultaneously gauged pitch change on a meter when using the manometer? What does 2" or 3" of movement equate to in terms of pitch change?

I finally got around to addressing this inquiry. Armed with a dial manometer and a frequency meter, i measured the pitch of my chanter and drones at two pressures.

1.0 psi- 1.2 psi = 0.2 psi

A 940 - 968 = +28 Hz
E 705 - 715 = +10 Hz
A 471 - 475 = + 3 Hz

Tenor 235 - 235 = 0 Hz
Bass 118 - 118 = 0 Hz

The frequencies are displayed to nearest Hz unit

For those using a water manometer, here are conversion values:

1 psi = 27.67 inch water.

1 inch water = 0.0361 psi

The pressure difference of 0.2 psi corresponds to 5.53 inches of water.

I had to blow considerably harder to get 0.2 psi more than i was comfortable playing. I did this to get a repeatable reading on the gauge.

A pressure change of +1 inch water would give the following frequency changes:

A high +5 Hz
E +1.8
A low +0.7

Your chanter and/or reed may give different values but the overall behavior would be similar.

Conclusion: "It is much easier to overblow the high hand than the low hand".

[Aaron M]

Originally posted by McThistle:
Just curious, but have you ever simultaneously gauged pitch change on a meter when using the manometer? What does 2" or 3" of movement equate to in terms of pitch change?

I finally got around to addressing this inquiry. Armed with a dial manometer and a frequency meter, i measured the pitch of my chanter and drones at two pressures.
.....
Conclusion: "It is much easier to overblow the high hand than the low hand". Nicely done... Thanks for posting that.
:hatoff:

[CreekNation]

"It is much easier to overblow the high hand than the low hand".

LOL, talk about belaboring the obvious. If one needs a manometer and a tuner to reveal that crucial little nugget of piping wisdom, one should clearly abandon the pipes and take up some other equally fascinating instrument with "cultural cachet"--perhaps the ukelele? Mmmmm hula girls. :)

Thanks for the sanity check McThistle!

Challenging reeds are good!

[Gord™ ©1980]

Originally posted by Andrew T. Lenz, Jr.:
Ok, you have a student who is relatively new to the pipes. What do you do to develop steady blowing? Are you a "manometer-type" or an "ear-type" and why?
Andrew When I first started really concentrating on playing tone, I would throw in a CD of some band (a good band) that I knew a few tunes of, and I'd crank it as loud as I could and play along doing everything I could to make sure my tone was steady along with the recording....

worked for me....and now I can say I've "played" with Shotts :lol:

:hatoff:
Cheers,
Gord

[tynecastle]

Originally posted by Wulls:
I, as a matter of course, get students to practice in front of a mirror. If they can play with the bass drone steady (still is better) they cannot fail to develop "smooth" blowing.
Otherwise I have not seen any poor advice here...... A mirror will only give an indication as to posture. How the hell watching yourself in a mirror helps your blowing beats me? :shrug:

[Otherwise I have not seen any poor advice here...... These forums are well known for such poor advice.

[galbayman]

I must vouch for the effectiveness of the mirror technique. Like many approaches to better piping, it may not suit all, but it helped me recognize and overcome 'swinging drone syndrome,' and helped me blow more steadily in a curious way: observing myself was almost like watching my playing as my teacher does, in a 'step outside yourself' kind of way.

What may be poor advice for some, will be helpful for others. That's the way of piping as well as human nature. I don't see what is gained by scoffing at such differences.

[SgtMac]

I found what helped me out tremendously was closing up the drones so they don't let out as much air. This was helpful when I would start to tire out. I could keep the air pressure longer and rely on my arm to take over for longer periods of time.

The Captain pointed out to me that my drones were over powering the chanter and showed me how to close up the drones to the point before they would close off. This allowed just enough air to keep the volume down on the drones but also helped me keep them much steadier. When air is flowing out of the drones and at a fast rate, keeping the frequency stable is like a moving target.

SgtMac

[CalumII]

Tynecastle, it is generally a very good idea to find out who you're slagging off (and their records) before accusing them of giving poor advice. I've seen plenty on this forum, but not from Wulls.

What happens when you blow steady? Your left arms squeezes the bag continuously and hardly moves. So what happens? Your bass drone becomes steadier. Think about it.

A common irk of mine is teachers who say to themselves: 'Right. This student's blowing is unsteady. Therefore, at times they blow too hard. So, what I'll do is open his drone reeds right up and then he won't blow too hard to shut them off. How splendid that will be.' Then the student can barely blow his roaring drones and wonders what the hell is going on, and why he is puffing so much. How that is a recipe for steady blowing I don't know.

Cheers,
Calum

[buddie]

Originally posted by CalumII:
What happens when you blow steady? Your left arms squeezes the bag continuously and hardly moves. So what happens? Your bass drone becomes steadier. Think about it.
I have!
Where does a mirror come into the picture??
:shrug:

[John McCain]

Originally posted by tynecastle:
These forums are well known for such poor advice. Your post indicates that you consider yourself knowledgeable enough to know poor advice. Would you please share you technique(s) for teaching steady blowing?

Best, John

[Sydney]

Check out John Cairns' Book 4 - he explains how to do this better than anywhere else that I have seen.

[Richard Mao]

Originally posted by tynecastle:
A mirror will only give an indication as to posture. How the hell watching yourself in a mirror helps your blowing beats me? :shrug:

In my instructing experience a mirror is one of my teaching tools (I am a gadget freak).... I have a plastic mylar three-foot-tall mirror I routinely hold in front of my beginning-on-the-big-one pipers... (and at home ask them to continue their practice in front of a full length mirror, or a reflective glass patio door/window at night)

I ask them to observe their heaving chest syndrome and ask them to shift their huffing and puffing from the upper chest to diaphragmatic breathing.... demonstrating by having them observe and actually place hands on my stomach (if they are comfortable with such). (there are more directed exercises to become aware of and use the diaphragm)

Sucking in air by heaving the upper chest also manifests itself in drone tops wavering to and fro... observable in the mirror as a symptom... otherwise not "felt" while the newby is struggling with the "octopus."

Observe the clenched iron jaw/lips syndrome. And both visibly RELAX the facial muscles and pace the breaths the piper takes.

Observe the squashing the cat (bag) syndrome with the arm....

and demonstrating the wonders ... first of no pressure on the bag by the arm... allowing/becoming confident in the natural kinetic energy recoil elasticity of the full bag to sustain the tone/sound of the pipes (maybe chanter only or drone(s) only at first) while the piper takes a short (but not panicky) breath....

and then demonstrating and seeing how the "heavy arm" looks and feels like as it is sustaining the pitch... while the piper takes his breath..

Squeezing the bag too much while being too panicky will also result in the drone tops wavering around.... completely observable in the mirror... often not noticed.... except by an outside observer otherwise ... because the piper is too pre-occupied on his/her own.

Finally, I ask the student to evaluate/recognize when they are exhibiting in the mirror/experiencing the iron hand / clenched fingers syndrome... and get the student to do "just" scales .... and observe how "relaxed" fingers look while executing something that is so well known there is no finger tension...

so, for me, single tool.... multiple uses...

We shouldn’t feel too self important…
I think it is significant that pipers get more applause
when they stop piping . . . than when they start.

Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

p.s. of course, in forums such as this... there is advice given... that .... does not work for you.... usually it appears in these forums side by side with contrasting opinions.... you pays your "price" valuing the advice (regardless of putative source) based on the price you paid... and decide what/who makes sense for you...

without expending typing/thread time on questioning credentials..... please

rich

[Curt]

Isn't it really just as simple as listening? I can't see using a mirror myself, but to each his own. Maybe just having the outside tenor on and maybe the bass in tune with low A and just holding that for a while listening if it is steady? I see no point in looking at anything when we are talking about tone and steadiness, but maybe that approach works for some. I suppose it is possible that some folks can't hear the drones going in and out of tune. I am not sure, but maybe if it was pointed out to the piper having trouble they could hear it happening.

[buddie]

A nice ***snip*** post (***....***) Richard but at the end of the day you do not need a mirror to teach someone to play the pipes.

**content removed by ChickaDee -see Forum Rule #4 and #11**

[CreekNation]

When you're blowing as hard as you can just to keep the things going and haven't put the time in to let your muscles and brain learn (the hard way) how to blow relaxed and steady with minimal effort (just like your chanter fingers should be) you're probably not gonna be able to hear the wavering tone. Recording oneself can be a revelation. Like the first time you heard your recorded voice (I sound like THAT?)

Any tools to help you see and hear and take steps to eliminate wavering tone are great (They are simply tools to get your piping better, quicker).

A lotta folks are so busy blowing, they don't know they sound like shite.

[Wulls]

Originally posted by CalumII:
Tynecastle, it is generally a very good idea to find out who you're slagging off (and their records) before accusing them of giving poor advice. It is indeed...... Buddy and Tynecastle both know me, unfortunately we cannot all meet up for a pint (in a "two out of three aint bad" sort of way) :shrug:
They both Know my email address.......

[AJF]

Originally posted by Wulls:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally posted by CalumII:
<span style="font-weight: bold"> Tynecastle, it is generally a very good idea to find out who you're slagging off (and their records) before accusing them of giving poor advice. It is indeed...... Buddy and Tynecastle both know me, unfortunately we cannot all meet up for a pint (in a "two out of three aint bad" sort of way) :shrug:
They both Know my email address....... </span></div></div>Well put, Wulls. I think it's clear that buddie and tynecastle have a LOT in common. :D I particularly enjoy how they manage to back 'each other' up and pay glowing compliments! That's really sick.

However, we won't have to put up with this serial pest for a while anyway - barred. Well, at least until the old duffer comes up with another name (or three) to hide behind and also have conversations with himself.

PS Wulls, you must be on the same page as me - I've invited tynecastle, buddie, whatever he goes by, to meet me for a pint and a chat at Lord Todd's on Aug 11th. I'm keen to clarify the content of some really witty and intelligent PMs he's sent me from out of nowhere. Maybe you can meet us there also? From what this fellow has displayed thus far, I won't hold my breath. It's most likely to be just you and I working our way through a few pints.

What this person needs to understand is that his 'fame' is founded on his childish and self-indulgent slanging attacks, not anything good and constructive. More's the pity for poor old buddie/tynecastle etc. Just a bit loopy. He needs help.

[Richard Strayer]

Sounds to me like buddie/tynecastle could benefit from taking a good long look at himselves in the mirror, so maybe it wasn't such bad advice after all. :thumb:

[AJF]

Originally posted by Richard Strayer:
Sounds to me like buddie/tynecastle could benefit from taking a good long look at himselves in the mirror, so maybe it wasn't such bad advice after all. :thumb: That's very apt. Great call. Got to pay that one! :thumb:

Could have some real fun with the mirror analogy given that he's been known to have 'conversations' with himself on this forum under different names!!! Maybe he thinks his reflection is talking back to him....? :D

[Selkirk Pipey]

Primarily, it must be understood that these forums are not meant to become vehicles for bashing anyone for a difference of opinion or experience.

This "mirror" subject becomes tedious and simply chat room-like when we belittle others, often straying off the subject to do so. Can we not be ladies and gentlemen in this discussion?

For my/our experience, the mirror quickly allows the student to observe ineffective breathing, unnecessary instrument movement, and distracting facial expressions while playing. Instructor comments about these things truly come to life when one may see for oneself the development of objectionable habits.

Certain of my students have refused to use a mirror with any regularity. With almost no exception, they fail to make the cut for higher-profile performances or for competition. When protesting their plight, I'm forced to say, "You need to more frequently use your digital tuner and a mirror, to develop a more consciously steady blowing habit. Otherwise, you drift in and out of pitch with the others, spoiling and discouraging their best efforts. That isn't fair to the majority who work hard at playing steadily."

To this, a few anger, but most get to work, thereby improving their performance value. Those who anger usually also fail to become "team players" for the band, in other important ways. They exclude themselves from the deep rewards of full participation.

[AJF]

Originally posted by Selkirk Pipey:
Primarily, it must be understood that these forums are not meant to become vehicles for bashing anyone for a difference of opinion or experience.

This "mirror" subject becomes tedious and simply chat room-like when we belittle others, often straying off the subject to do so. Can we not be ladies and gentlemen in this discussion? Agreed. And most people are respectful of others, and also stay on course. In fact, you will find that the vast majority of protagonists on this topic are genuine and helpful where they can be elsewhere.

I think if you knew the full story here, with regards to one particular individual, you would see that the 'tongue in cheek' swipes were thoroughly deserved. Simple case of a really nasty piece of work being 'run out of town'. No harm done to others.

[Charlie Rutan]

OK... da Capo a la Lenz...
pipers have been doing just fine for centuries prior to the invention of the 'manometer'(mamometer, whatever); ya gotta use your own ears with the learner, and ya gotta get them to learn how to use theirs...(Arguably harder than getting them to taorluath STB properly)...all this goes back to oral instruction; (solfege, canntaireachead)...think back + remember how hard we all had to learn to 'get the music off of the written page'...incorporate aural training from the get-go, and you'll have a student who sees their own results/progress for themselves. By teaching them to be able to hear for themselves when theyre not blowing steady, we're saving ourselves a load of rubbish + time as well....Dont just teach them piping, teach them *musicality* and the piping will follow suit.
Enough of this 'personal' vendetta crap too...man Im glad I farmed all my students off 3 years ago... whos got the paitence for all that???
Probably be more helpful for the student to play in front of a roomfull of piper peers than a mirror.

[Wulls]

Originally posted by Charlie Rutan:
ya gotta use your own ears with the learner, and ya gotta get them to learn how to use theirs...........
By teaching them to be able to hear for themselves when theyre not blowing steady, we're saving ourselves a load of rubbish + time as well....Well said Charlie........ I'm convinced that the way we teach nowadays has a lot to do with the "advancement" of methods....we don't spend as much time with students as we used to. Realistically, how much can you teach someone in an hour a week ? Training them to listen to themselfs is an integral part of teaching piping. People will nearly always use the best (easiest/fastest results) method at their disposal to pass on skills. In my experience people who embrace change and fully investigate different methods of doing things will be more successfull than the folks who bury their heads in the sand. I am not advocating one "method" over another here..... I am suggesting that it is arrogance indeed to assume that our chosen way is either the only way, or the best way.

Originally posted by Charlie Rutan:

pipers have been doing just fine for centuries prior to the invention of the 'manometer'(mamometer, whatever.Back to my point about methods changing........
Thousands of good pipers learned their trade well with nothing more than a critical uncle on the next croft.... :thumb:

[Charlie Rutan]

you da man Wulls

[Selkirk Pipey]

The use of "modern" devices in teaching has been met with skepticism -- for centuries. Were not centuries required, even to gain widespread acceptance of pipes with two and then three drones? The use of staff notation was surely a hard sell 200+ years ago!

Several recent points have been noted that also are quite true: An intelligent instructor will not "bury his head in the sand" on narrow or merely familiar, "time-honored" methods -- "new" methods are not inherently useless; a mere hour per week is a minimum at best, for effective instruction -- our lessons often are double that length, or more often; "notey" playing must be discouraged from the very beginning and listening critically to oneself, both in real time and by taped recording, are essential -- we always begin with tuning by ear, long before whipping out the digital tuner!

We use every method at our disposal, whether longstanding or innovative, as long as the results continue to roll in! Our competitors have always earned high scores for instrument set-up, tuning, steadiness and musicality. Such results stand on their own.

The TRUE TRICK in all of this is in securing COOPERATIVE students!!

[Richard Strayer]

Originally posted by Selkirk Pipey:
We use every method at our disposal, whether longstanding or innovative, as long as the results continue to roll in!Words to live by, Pipey. :thumb:

[Piper_06]

Just a note from a student that reads this thread to pick up additional information.

First off if something said here conflicts with what my P/M or instructor says then I go with the instructor. I might ask about it to gain a better understanding.

Second, I look at this forum as a supplement to my instruction. If it is over my head, I ignore it for now, or file it away in memory. Where else can you get the benefit of 100’s of years of piping experience, as well as teaching experience?

Third, as someone with quite a few years of management experience, someone who loves to tear down others ideas, but do not offer alternatives is someone wanting to build their own ego, not someone trying to help.

Finally, I tried the mirror, and it helped me to see that I was not breathing from the diaphragm, more of a chest breather, so I can work at that too.

Thank you for all of your lively discussions, it helps more than improve your teaching technique, it helps some of us who are thirsty for knowledge.

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by someone:
pipers have been doing just fine for centuries prior to the invention of the 'manometer'The same could be said for a metronome . . .

I'm sure we all agree that a student needs to develop a good ear for blowing tone, my question had to do with getting to that point.

I'm curious how many instructors not using a manometer have made a serious attempt to use one as another tool in the arsenal. (I know an instructor who poo-poos a manometer but has never even touched one—so how would he know that it doesn't compress the learning curve?) Everyone has their preferences, the question is if the preference is based on prejudice or experience. What would be even more valuable to me would be: "I used to use a manometer for students but abandoned it because . . ." or "I started used a manometer and found it great because . . ."

Andrew

[windsaloft]

I'll pitch in ---

"What the manometer taught me" -
1. I can build a quick, down and dirty one for $6.25 and about 20 minutes.
2. When I can HEAR the unsteady blowing, I still am varying about 3-4". With concentration, I can make it hold totally still. This showed me where in my breathing cycle I tended to surge, and that there are surges that I can not hear.
3. I can plug in a bunch of different reeds and actually get "readings" on their strengths, find the new ones that are closest to what I find comfortable, etc. and mark them so when I am looking for a new one, can find one close to start with. (I have a pile of reeds from different sources, so I label them with pencil)
4. I can find out how much a little sanding or scraping affects my reed strength (I was shocked, despite knowing this intellectually, how little sanding it takes to drop a few inches of strength!)
5. I can use it to see how much "pinching" and moistening the tip of my reed eases it (about 3") and use the tuner to see what happens to my pitch when I do. I can also use these tools to see how long these "fixes" last.
6. I can use the manometer to indicate the degree to which my reed eases up after 30-40 minutes of playing (2") and the tuner to get an objective measure of how much the pitch changes.

As a beginner, all of these more concrete feedbacks is nothing more than what I could guess/intuit, but seeing it concretely really helps me.

Lastly --- I only used the manometer to practice steady blowing for a few days, but once in awhile I hook it up for some other reason and just do a spot check. It's also fun to see how, when you are really tired, how wildly your blowing changes, and what you really really need to focus on to hold it steady even when you are dying. This is what I now need work on for band.

For me, its been a fun too, one of many, and it has added information as well as a break in my daily routine to add a new dimension of interesting stuff to my playing and practice. SO -- I think the manometer has its place as one of many tools and techniques -- it isn't a cure all, but it definately gives very visual and measureable cues to what you are trying to learn.

My 2 cents.

[Selkirk Pipey]

AMEN, Andrew!!

[haganjp]

Three essential elements to blowing steady are 1)developing control of your diagphragm, 2) developing control of your arm, and 3) balancing the force applied by each.

To develop control of your diagphragm, you first need to strengthen it. A common technique for doing this with most other wind/brass instruments is to play long tones. (see http://www.saxlessons.com/longtones.htm)
On the pipes, I'll cork my drones, put an easy reed in, and just play a low-A for as long as I can on a single breath until my diagphragm starts to quiver. During the process, I listen to my chanter to try and minimize variations in pitch. I'll try an get into a rhythm whereby I'll hold the note for, let's say, 8 seconds before I take the next breath. Over time, I'll try to increase the time interval before needing a breath. I'll repeat this maybe 10 times at first, rest, and then do it all over again. Think of it as if you were going to the gym to lift weights.

To develop arm control, I'll do the same thing between breaths, using my arm to bring the bag down as far as possible without cutting out. I'll re-emphasize the point that you should use an easy reed at first because you can easily hurt your arm if your not careful. As before, I'll try to hold the tone for so many seconds, with the goal of increasing my time at each session. Again, you want to listen to the pitch of the chanter and hold it as steady as possible while doing this.

Lastly, you need to practice the coordination of the two. In general, your arm should always be applying the same pressure to the bag regardless of whether you're taking a breath or not. The goal here is to increase your diaphragm pressure until it matches your arm pressure. If you've developed sufficient strength and control from the previous exercises, this shouldn't be that difficult to do. Your goal is to attain nice smooth rhythm between blowing and breathing.

The point of these exercises is to become sensitive to the pressure required to produce a good sound. Just remember, that overblowing occurs because your either squeezing too hard on the bag or you've inflated the bag too much (at which point your diaghragm pressure becomes controlling). Underblowing is almost exclusively an arm control issue.

Hope this helps.

[Richard Mao]

Originally posted by haganjp:

To develop arm control, I'll do the same thing between breaths, using my arm to bring the bag down as far as possible without cutting out. I'll re-emphasize the point that you should use an easy reed at first because you can easily hurt your arm if your not careful. As before, I'll try to hold the tone for so many seconds, with the goal of increasing my time at each session. Again, you want to listen to the pitch of the chanter and hold it as steady as possible while doing this.

The above is a good way to train/develop/strengthen your arm muscles... But I'd like to point out in actualy playing that this squeeze down capability is only needed at the end of a tune/set for maintainance of tone/pitch until cutoff..

No piper in the middle of a tune squeezes down the bag for several seconds.... e.g. deflating/collapsing the bag, say, halfway down... and then start blowing again..... because what comes out of the bag must be put back in...

and blowing that much air back in... and maintaining constant pitch while letting/easing the arm go back up.... being blown off the bag... is very tricky...

if you observe top pipers .... you'll be seeing very little arm movement at all... during the middle of playing... you will see a fairly prompt/smartish (but not frantic) intake of breath...

so what is happening?

I'd like to modify your statement below a bit



Lastly, you need to practice the coordination of the two. In general, your arm should always be applying the same pressure to the bag regardless of whether you're taking a breath or not.

The point of these exercises is to become sensitive to the pressure required to produce a good sound.{Rich's comment: as you've said in a different part of your response: "you want to listen to the pitch of the chanter {and drones} and hold it as steady as possible while doing this."}

...Just remember, that overblowing occurs because your either squeezing too hard on the bag or you've inflated the bag too much (at which point your diaghragm pressure becomes controlling). Underblowing is almost exclusively an arm control issue.

Hope this helps. In general your arm should be applying the pressure needed to maintain STEADY PITCH... (e.g. for example, you can demonstrate this to yourself..... blow just a hiA.... through several blowing and taking breath cycles)... This inevitably means that the pressure being applied by the arm INCREASES while you take a breath...

So that the pressure experienced at the chanter and drone reeds stays constant.... the arm is increasing EFFORT/PRESSURE to make up for the loss of the pressure being supplied by the blowing/diaphragm... IT IS THE SUMMATION of arm pressure and diaphragm pressure being RECEIVED by the bag....that must stay constant...

I think of the arm as the pitch regulating mechanism... and the old timers used to describe arm pressure as just a "heavy arm".... not a squeeze.

I think the differences I'm pointing out are: I don't see or want a piper to squeeze the bag down halfway in the middle of a tune... I want the piper to take a fairly prompt breath.... If the bag has been blown full enough.... as soon as the intake of a breath starts.... the elasticity/stored kinetic energy in the bag exerts some buffering pressure.... that must be supplemented/complemented by

my second perception of difference between what's been written and my perception that the arm does increase pressure/effort while a breath is being taken..

to our readers.... if you come up with something that works for you.... don't let this hair splitting confuse you....

but if you're obsessive about analysis of what's actually happening... I hope this exchange between haganjp and me has helped.

I am NOT slowing down with age! I’ve always played this slow!
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( PekingPiper@mao.org )

[haganjp]

Hi Richard,

Although, you are correct in asserting that in actual playing, you rarely will let the bag deflate to the point of near cutoff ... the point of the thread was how to "teach" steady blowing. To do so, one must learn how to control pitch with each element involved. The exercise I outlined above simply helps with each of those elements.

Having said that, Richard is completely correct in his assertion of how top piper's take their breath. Normal-paced, deep breaths, usually suffice. Nonetheless, too many players do not develop sufficient arm strength to maintain pressure during this short-lived breathing sequence. As such, they usually under-squeeze or over-squeeze whenever they take a breath. The exercise outlined above for the arm is directed towards improving arm strength and, in so doing, improve their control of pitch.

OK, but now for hair splitting ... I think we need to distinguish between "force" and "pressure". Definition from my physics book: Pressure = Force x Area (over which it is applied). Constant "pressure" within the bag is essential for maintaining steady pitch!!! The "force" needed to supply this pressure comes from 2 sources, the arm and the lungs. When taking a breath, the force from the lungs is lost, so the force on the arm must increase to maintain the pressure constant. The trick is to do this as seamlessly as possible such that their is no perceptible change in pitch.

[haganjp]

Correction: Pressure = Force / Area (over which it is applied)

[gordonmac]

Hi Guys, i also use mirrors for learners, if the drones are not wavering all over the place ,you should be getting a steady drone sound. alot of senior band people should try this

[ray5123]

How do you use mirrors? :wink: Can you explain for the simple mind such as mine?

[CalumII]

You tell the student to watch their bass drone and try and keep it as steady as possible.

[ray5123]

Oh... I see what you mean now.....
I learned to listen and have correct posture. The bass drone must have taken care of itself that way....

Thanks :)

[Selkirk Pipey]

I can be a practical joker on occasion!

I had one student whose cheeks looked like a blowfish with the blowpipe hanging out of one corner of his mouth rather than centered, who bounced his entire body up and down, swayed back and forth and pumped his drones up and down --ALL AT ONCE!! I often kidded with him, suggesting that, with such amazing coordination, he ought to win the World's in but a year or two -- or perhaps he ought to buy a pint of Lindane!!

I always refer to this drone dipping business as "jigging for Crappies." It had no effect on him.

Mirrors didn't ever seem to arrest his odd presentation, even though it has for everyone else. So, rather than scold him or threaten to omit him from performances while at the following group rehearsal, I rigged up three long pieces of nylon fish line with large lead weights tied to one end, and a large drone diameter-sized loop at the other end. Funky-looking stuffed toy fish were attached to the weights.

While all were in a circle playing, I went over to a box, fetched the fish rigs and draped one over each of his drones. By prior arrangement with those assigned to stand next to him, as soon as he realized he was encumbered, we stopped, and his immediate neighbors quickly grabbed a line, held it up as if a prize catch and I snapped a quick digital picture of them, and him half turned around with a shocked look on his face. The whole thing made everyone including him howl with laughter, (which we often do for one reason or other!). I sent him a file of the picture the next day. He's never done his funky chicken routine since!

DO have some FUN while learning to blow steadily!!!

[vacuumpiper]

I'm almost afraid to post this since the discussion seems to have ended however, as both a teacher and a student that is working on refinning steadyness of blowing this is a topic that is pertenent to me at this time.

First of all I found it insulting that someone would suggest that if someone can not automatically hear something musically then they should toss in the pipes. Not all of us have been created with identical strengths. Those that happen to be strong in that area are very lucky. Yet these people are likely have weaknesses in other areas, musically or not, that might encourage some creativity in finding ways to over come or compensate for these weaknesses rather than to just give up on something because it does not come easily.

For those that are critical of the use of mirrors I think it may be important to recognize that hearing something and understanding what and why you are hearing it are two different things. For example, if your drones are not steady regardless of your efforts to correct the problem it is important to find the cause and eliminate it without disrupting the things that are not a contributing factor. The mirror is a tool to help disect technique so that the problem can be identified and addressed.

I think it is also presumtious to say that it is a no brainer that it is easier to over blow the upper notes than it is to over blow the lower notes. That is something that is known by those that have learned that to be the case however at some point in time it did have to be learned. A beginning student has not had that presented to them before so assuming they should know that to be true is like saying that it is a knowledge that is completely inherent in all human beings. Isn't it?

In the several years that I have been piping that is something that I have come to recognize however it was not until very recently, when my instructor showed me on a manometer, that I understood how substantial the difference could be. The results posted here for the .2 variation in psi were another way to help make it that much more understandable. Thank you for taking the time to do that.

Finally, if everyone had in place the same mechinisims for learning there would be no need for the diversity in the appoach to education that exists today. Someone had to think outside the box to develope programs used at schools such as montisory schools or the sylvan learning center. Why wouldn't we as pipers want to think outside the box to find ways to broaden the teaching/learning methods we use so that the art of piping does not become something that is limited to those born with a silver chanter in their hands?

While I do not believe that everyone can play the pipes, I do know that a struggle does not always lead to failure. It is the use of teaching techniques and tools coupled with the students level of disapline and commitment that will determine the outcome.

I appologize if I sound at all defensive to some comments made in this discussion. Although I feel I am a person of a respectable intelligence level I have always had difficulty learning by the more commonly used methods. I am greatful for the instructors and mentors along the way that have taken that extra little (or not so little) bit of time and effort to try different ways of presenting things to me rather than just writting me off.

By the way, one of my major learning weaknesses is spelling, I am sure you can see that I did toss the towel in on that one :wink:

SAMZ

[Selkirk Pipey]

:thumb:

This quite thoughtful reply couldn't be more true. An effective instructor must be able and eager to "invent" techniques, on the spot. "Thinking outside the box" is the most prime order of the day. Whatever will reach the student, to bridge gaps and to create durable progress is what MUST be done! No technique is BAD, unless it fails to effectively lift an individual to a higher level of progress.

Yes, in the interest of legitimate technique and of tighter ensemble or band synchronization, we try to teach students the same things. However, the paths to those objectives are as varied as are the students themselves. Anyone who attempts to reach all students by only one method is missing tremendous opportunities to effectively train far more people, and far more quickly,

A competent instructor, to be worth the time and money, MUST be a naturally perceptive and creative person. If not, then the privilege of teaching ought to be left to those who possess such qualities.

[Robert McDonald]

"You tell the student to watch their bass drone and try and keep it as steady as possible."

I can see people are getting confused between sonically stable and physically stable. The mirror just alows you to see that the bass drone isn't waving about all over the shop whth the top describing circles or figure-of-eights in the air.

Robert
EKPB

[Wulls]

Robert,
What I mean here is it is impossible to blow steady when the bass is writing its name in the sky...... If learners focus on keeping things still it helps develop a smooth changeover between blowing and squeezing. It is not the be all, it is just a technique to help.....
You been speaking to Stormy????? :wink:

[JRM]

Originally posted by Wulls:
What I mean here is it is impossible to blow steady when the bass is writing its name in the sky...... If learners focus on keeping things still it helps develop a smooth changeover between blowing and squeezing. It is not the be all, it is just a technique to help.....
Good advice. I tell people the same thing. If your drones are flailing around in the circle, it's as good an indication as any that the sound is not steady. For those people that have a more difficult time grasping and hearing the concept of stability, I've taken a page from some teachers I know that are having good success with using manometers, and I do recommend them in certain circumstances as a good tool for reinforcing good technique. The student may or may not be able to hear the changes in tone and tuning caused by unsteady blowing, but the visual reminder they can't ignore. They can also see the results of any experimenting they do, while playing, to learn good technique.

[psmtg]

In addition to all the advise already given, I find that it helps tremendously if your students hear examples of good, steady blowing on a regular basis. Seeing and hearing steady blowing on a well tuned pipe can do wonders for an inexperienced piper.