Piping Schools - Worth your Students' Money?

[Andrew Lenz]

As an instructor, what do you think your students get out of a piping school that they don't get from your personalized instruction? (Aside from maybe piobaireachd if you don't teach that.)

Typically, piping school students are taught some new marches or reels, etc. that they may or may not ever use again. There are classes on maintenance, etc. but in the seminars and workshops I've been to, I haven't really picked up anything new in that respect. Sometimes you catch a class on something completely new (like music composition), but the rest of the time

Personally, I feel I get a lot more for my money from private lessons than attending a school. If I could get the week at a school with top pipers focused on my competition tunes, that'd probably be a different ball game. But even then, my instructor is good enough to give me plenty of things to work on.

Any thoughts?

Andrew

[Morlowgee]

Ditto, I understand the premise behind teaching new tunes, it's done in order to see the real you warts and all. Many times we can polish out bad habits on familiar tunes, only to have them pop up again and again every time we're the slightest bit challenged. But I don't see that this type of teaching has any advantage over a qualified instructor.

I think schools can be useful to some one if all they have ever had is less than par band instruction. There are a couple of bands in my area that have some pretty tawdry instructors. But for the most part I'm with you on the, money is better spent on a qualified regular instructor.

[The Captain]

Hi Andrew.... I think both you and the next respondee are looking at Piping Schools with blinkers on....your straight line visuals are 20 - 20, but your peripheral visuals are 0 - 0. Piping is many things to many people. Expert instruction and exposure comes in many different forms. I for one learn from many sources. If I had stuck to my primary instructor I would still playing in the local parade band... nothing more ... no competitive experience , no increase in exposure, no increase in an understanding of the music , no social connection with pipers from around the world....etc...you get the picture..... blinkers....but the social contact, the motivation, the interaction with others, the learning on a global scale have all come from the Piping Schools I have attended. It started here in Canada with the likes of Donald MacLeod, Seumas MacNeill, John MacFadyen, Alex Duthart, Duncan Johnstone, etc....and continues with Angus MacColl, Willie McCallum, Alasdair Gillies, Jim McGillivray, Jack Lee and a host of otehrs... that experience alone has been better than any single private lesson I have ever had... so the Piping School experience has certainly made me what I am....and it still continues...every school , I learn something else....

Cheers, Ken

[dorothy]

I have been to several different piping schools, and each one had its own personality. But each one has been excellent.

I feel like I have had a year of instruction after attending piping school. There's nothing like total immersion. We as pipers are very lucky to be able to attend such schools with world-class instructors.

Definitely worth the investment.

[Iain MacDonald]

Let me echo Ken's comments.

My first real exposure to great piping was at summer school when I was 10. I learned lots of tunes I didn't play, but I also learned a vocabulary for the musical world in which I was interested, and I got working on my mental who's who, and I was exposed to the great thinkers and players of the day.

Those experiences led me to seek further instruction in Scotland, play in bands there....and fill in the rest of my piping life so far.

Now, I teach a lot of people, and run a summer school, and have been involved for several years in another large summer school. I see the benefits to everyone, and I see how they last through the year. I see it in the kids I teach, and I see it and hear about it from the adults who attend. It's in the emails I get after the school from parents, who SEE and HEAR the difference.

My own children (14/12) come home from summer school high on the experience. They talk about the social stuff and the fun, they play a LOT, and they are more connected to other players, and they follow PD events on their own. I can connect their success and enthusiasm directly to those experiences.

A good summer school experience builds your skills, enthusiasm, interest, knowledge, email list, P&D connections..and on it goes. And the really cool thing: all this is true for students AND instructors!

If you are just getting a few marches and reels...you're missing most of the experience.

[Andrew Lenz]

Uh, oh. I, of all people, should have known we have piping school instructors around this place! Duh. No offense, Ken.

I do have to admit that really enjoy meeting people, from Grade V to Clasp winners. It's a bonus if it's a brush with piping greatness. (Present company included, Captain!) When I met Roddy MacLeod briefly last year he said he'd been to my website, on the other hand, I don't think that Simon McKerrell knew me from a doorknob! I'd say that keeps me humble, but I have my playing to do that!

I've only been to one week-long school and it was the first year it was run. We were sorted to an instructor by skill level and were with them all week for half the day, basically learning a few new marches and other light music. The other half was electives, and often you ended up with the same instructor. There was only 15 minutes the whole week of one-on-one instruction (via sign up for time slots). Is this a pretty common format?

Andrew

[sheldon hamblin]

I have to agree with the Captain here. I am an adult student that was exposed to pipe band life through my son, and it became contagious to the point that I served on the board of directors, as pipe corporal, sergeant and now the pipe major of a small band.

I have attended summer schools, winter weekends, spring schools, with group and individual instruction from instructors like the Captain, Jim McGillivray, Roddy MacDonald, Alasdair Gillies, Norman Gillies (that the world of piping recently lost), and it is through this instruction, exposure and experience that I have been able to build a foundation of knowledge that serves me well in my own band, and solo performances. Look up the Midwest Winter Storm weekend, great performances, competitions of top players of the world, with some group workshops, and well worth it. I still struggle with embelishments, and timing, and will never be an open piper, but I am striving to become a grade 2 at this point. My current instructor is very encouraging, and I am confident that his instruction has brought me to the level I am at now. But that does not detract from the instructor I had before him that encouraged me to travel to Scotland for instruction there, and accompanied me and other students to that school.

Piping is more than correct finger movements, and to limit your exposure to the world of piping (all types), is like traveling through life with blinders on, you suffer from tunnel vision, and I agree with the Captain's analogy of the 20-20 forward vision verses what is lost in the peripheral.

As far as the format for individual instruction, I had 2 hours the last summer school I went to, but that's not what you go to piping camp for. Learning new tunes? Yes. Listening to world class pipers recitals? Yes. Learning about other pipers, bands, types of music that you would never be exposed to from one instructor? Take a guess.

Perhaps you can tell, I am a fan, and past student of the Captain. I never would have met him if I did not attend the summer school in Ontario. IMHO

[Wulls]

My personal slant is that there is little point in signing up for a school if all you are going to learn is a few new tunes......
What is the point paying good money for something you can learn yourself :shrug:
My approach is to teach HOW to play tunes, How to interpret music, how to play together as a band (if that is the aim), How to set up a set of pipes, How to work with reeds, How to analyse your method of playing.
There is little point in teaching something you can pick up on your own so I try to pass on the experience that I have learned over the years.
I also prefer a hands on approach. How many schools let you pick a reed, figure out what is wrong with it,carve it to suit (under instruction) and set it up in your own chanter ?????? That is the sort of thing that is not done enough in a workshop setting.
(IMHO :thumb: )

[PipeFuzz]

Besides all of the great instruction and formal/informal learning opportunities - there's nothing to beat sitting in a packed classroom (maybe in say - Oberlin), with no A/C, on a hot summer day enjoying the great smell of last nights beer oozing through open sweat glands of a number of class members and the occasional instructor ..... (won't mention any names of people that have posted in this thread ...) :wink:

Though one of my best piping camp memories was sitting in a wee room with about six people, enjoying a late night libation and listening to great stories and some Cantarachd with the late PM Angus MacDonald.

Fuzz

[piper2b]

Good point, Wulls -- your class on reeds at Red River in '05 was one of the best and a great idea. The class gave me great confidence because you taught us the "cause and effect" of reed modification. Because it was in a workshop setting, we saw and heard 15 different examples instead of the 2 or 3 one would normally get with a session with a private instructor. The hands-on experience of trying out and carving on that bunch of reeds was invaluable.

Nancy :wave:

[Morlowgee]

Who am I to argue with the Captain? I do see your point regarding motivation and total immersion in piping. Those points are always a plus.

Now comes the schmooze: I attended one of your seminars Ken, and I got more nuggets and tips in two days than I ever have at any of the schools I've ever attended. I guess what I'm saying is besides immersion and motivation factor a lot of pipers, not all but a lot, come away disappointed from week long schools because they are looking for more of the type of things that you present in your weekend seminars.

For a lot of people the schools offer a chance to be taught by a qualified instructor and for some it would be their first time receiving good instruction. But as for myself I've got a good open piper as a tutor, and it's more those little nuggets that I'm looking for in a program. Most schools have lectures at night, and every once in a while it's really good, but for the most part I've found most, not all but most, to be a little lacking, so maybe as Wulls described those types of things could be included in the schools curriculum.

Now all that said I continue to go to different schools just for the reasons mentioned by Ian and Ken, but again I have a good instructor.

For those who don't have a good tutor I think that should be a priority. Geographical boundries are no longer a limiting factor for things like this. I live in Florida and my tutor lives in New York, and as you are well aware Ken with all the electronic gizmos out there this type of thing is easier than ever.

I guess it boils down to where I feel I get more bang for my buck, and that would be with a full time professional instructor once a week. That's not saying I think the schools are a bad thing, just that I think a regular tutor is more of a priority.

Whew, did I bail myself out of that sticky wicket?

[kaypiob]

I know you said as teachers, but I speak as a student--I get way more out of going to a week long school, or weekend workshop, than I will in a month of private lessons with a single instructor (no offense to my current instructors!). It's not just what I'm being taught, but the how, where, and when of it as well. To me, new tunes are just a bonus.

The whole immersion thing is a huge part of it--when you're surrounded by nothing but piping, with other students at different levels--some higher and lower than you, you can't help but learn something new, or learn to look at something you thought you knew in a totally different way.

Another thing is the variety of instruction you get at a school or a workshop. Exposing yourself to different teachers, with different styles of teaching and playing, I can only see as a benefit in the long run; you get different perspectives to which you can then make your own conclusions, and eventually use to further understand the music, develop your own style, and improve your playing in the long run. To me, coming out as a carbon copy of your private instructor is not so great a thing. (Again, no offense to my current instructors!)

Third thing, out of the many MANY benefits of going to a school/workshop, is networking. You get to meet all kinds of players, at all different levels, from all over the world. It's rare to come across other pipers in the 'real world,' so it's great to have that connection. And it's SO AWESOME to be able to meet, learn from, and hang out with the big guys.

It's also a great pick-me-up after a recent burn out. I felt kind of spent at the end of last season, and hadn't played much at all afterward, but after Winter Storm I was back up playing again, much more excited and enthusiastic about the upcoming season.

No matter what, you take SOMETHING with you from the experience, and that's definitely worth the money.
---
The format for the school I've been to was kind of similar in grouping people by abilities, but each day, from early morning to around 4 or 5 or so, it was an hour of lesson, an hour of practice on your own, and hour of lesson with a different instructor and so on. All-in-all I think it was three full lessons a day for the week, plus optional workshops between classes, sign-ups for a half hour lesson with any instructor, and late afternoon activities -- a 'massed bands' sort of thing, a Ceilidh in the middle of the week, instructors concert at the end of the week, etc.
Definitely DEFINITELY worth the money--this will be my third year going to the school!! :)

[dorothy]

Each piping school has a different format. Some have larger classes which meet longer; others have a limit of 3-4 students. With some you have the same instructor all week; others you have different instructors. Some have elective classes. Private lessons can be daily or once during the session; they might be included or optional for an additional fee.

So shop around and find what you think might suit your needs.

[NVR2L8]

My perspective as a drummer is that I would rather learn techniques than drum scores. I also think it's helpful if the school has a holistic approach, so that all instruction is interconnected and purposeful. (This comment is particularly aimed at multi-instructor, week-long schools).

Schools/camps provide a wealth of information in a very short time; and provide a fantastic motivational boost, as well as a great opportunity to catch up with friends, new and old. Oh yeah, lots of laughs, too.

[EquusRacer]

Wow; so many excellent points here. But I'm going to defend Andrew a bit.

I absolutely recommend many schools--and they do differ--for the motivation, for the camaraderie, for the exposure to the top pros and so forth. And I absolutely agree with Wulls. I've been to workshops and "retreats/schools" where tunes are being handed out without the benefit of instruction on idiom or other (then again, I've been to the opposite).

But I view schools as an adjunct to regular instruction. And, back to Andrew's point--if I may read more into it--there is nothing more valuable than regular and consistent lessons. The schools can act as a catalyst and perhaps as an accelerant...but it cannot replace regular instruction (assuming it's good, of course! :wink: )

As an example only, I have an adult student who has been a regular fixture at just about every piping school in these parts. Time and time again, something will come up...perhaps regarding pipe maintenance, perhaps regarding idiom, or any number of other things. And so often, I'll end up with something along the lines of, "You mean that nobody has ever raised this issue?"

Obviously, the point is that with all the wonderful instructors, exposure, benefits and all, such settings cannot hit on each and every thing specific students need. Those tend to be revealed--once more--in regular sessions with an instructor who knows that student well and has more than just a fleeting exposure.

[EquusRacer]

The Captain posted: "If I had stuck to my primary instructor I would still playing in the local parade band... nothing more ... no competitive experience , no increase in exposure, no increase in an understanding of the music , no social connection with pipers from around the world....etc..." I believe that's a failing of the instructor; not of the system of private instruction. Most of us can agree that there are some who should not be instructing (but, sadly, are). And many of us can agree that a good instructor will know when/how to expose their students to the wider world (including getting them signed up for various schools) and, especially, when to move them to another instructor if their own skills have been tapped completely.

[Mustache Joe]

In those cities and towns where no individual instructor exists, one has only the schools and workshops to help them improve their playing. And besides being introduced to new tunes and getting great instruction on how to interpret those tunes, there's the social aspect - meeting pipers, drummers, dancers, harpists, and fiddlers from all over the world, and the competitive aspect - seeing how well one's contemporaries are doing and using that as an incentive to work on one's own level of play.

[jessierose]

One of the greatest things I have taken away from piping schools is just plain old encouragement. When you see that guys like Angus MacColl and Jack Lee and TheCaptain,
himself, are the nicest guys, ready and willing to help you, you come away feeling like you can achieve something. It's like Andrew's quote about small people and great people. You have guard yourself some because there are piping instructors that ought not be calling themselves "teachers" so much as "discouragers" or "belittlers". But when you go spend even a few days with The Real Greats, you get something more than even the best piping instructor can give on his own. That maybe a little less practical and a little more abstract than you're looking for in a piping school but it can make the day to day practice or lessons much more bearable. So, maybe piping schools don't immediately change my piping or musicianship but in the long run, I think the sense of community can really edify you for the marathon pace of striving and working toward your big piping goals!
I sure dig them, anyway.
jess

[Morlowgee]

There are several instructor,including Ken himself, that offer online instruction, and with the advent of web cams it's the next best thing to being there. Poor technique that can only be corrected by the instructor seeing your hand position etc is now possible. Albeit one on one instruction is ideal as you stated Joe good instructors are hard to come by, but they are out there.

[AAA]

There can be no doubt that Schools can be a great social event, but in terms of actually learning anything useful I have my doubts about some of the schools out there.

The biggest complaint I've heard from students is the tunes are too simple and easy to learn.
They already know a string of 4/4 marches, so why give them more of the same?

The schools can only offer much at the basic level, but in Andrew's case where he's constantly exposed to "GOOD" instruction, I doubt the schools have much to offer other than creating some good memories.

Better bang for the buck would be to seek out a professional instructor and see them once a once.

It's your money, spend it as you see fit!

[Heatherbelle]

It's interesting going to schools in different places eg at the College of Piping having one tutor for the whole week, with the odd other guest lecture - whereas at the National Piping Centre having four or five different tutors every day. Benefits in each approach but very different. Always great to see a lone piper from some country where there isn't another bagpipe in sight, turn up at these schools for a feast of information that has to last them right through till they save up enough for the next trip.

[ratherbpiping]

When I was a kid each summer I went to pipe camp for two weeks. It was always the highlight of my summer. I did feel pressure to learn tunes faster than normal, and often did not get as uch out of the school as was offered, but had some great classes on theory, history, and the school even had a grading system 0ne through 6 in which I only got to Grade three, but that was because I was lazy and did not push myself.

As an Adult, I went to the Gealic College on Cape Breton Island. What a great time. There were few adult players I think atotal of 15 of us in camp. I took some Snare, some gaelic, and a lot of pipes. Learned stuff from a different approach, but just having time to do nothing but pipe, drum learn some gealic was fantastic. At the time I was focased on piping, and did not take as good advantage of some of the other things available, such as Fiddle, Highland dance etc. It was agreat vacation. Met some great people.I would love to do it again.

[Kenton Adler]

I've said before that the real value of going to one of the piping schools, or even a good weekend workshop, is what keeps turning over in your mind, and blooming throughout the rest of the year. You may not fully realize at the end of the week all the good you got out of it, but six months later when you can see the improvements based on what you picked up at the school, then you know you got your money's worth.

Plus, you just meet some damn cool people with similar interests.

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by AAA:
The biggest complaint I've heard from students is the tunes are too simple and easy to learn.I'm only interested in learning new tunes at a school if the primary function is to teach an aspect of playing that genre of music, not just to learn more tunes, I can do that on my own. Personally, I wouldn't mind simple tunes if they are explicitly an exposition of the underlying techniques and approaches which can be applied broadly to the idiom.

At the school I went to, the students were sorted the first day by skill level with an audition: beginner, intermediate and advanced. Ann Gray put me in Advanced. (I fooled her!) In the advanced class, we were given a number of tunes to learn, some were quite complex and given as an option for those who had mastered the tunes already provided. So most of the students were given an opportunity to stretch their skills—whether they learned much from learning the tunes is open to debate.

[b]"great classes on theory, history"[/i]

That's what would make it more worthwhile for me. This is what I'd like to see more of. I don't want to build a house, I can to that. I want to know how to build better houses. And maybe learn how to make them faster.

Andrew

[EquusRacer]

"Ann Gray put me in Advanced. (I fooled her!)" :lol: You're too modest, Andrew. You know as well as I that you don't fool Ann!!

And I so agree with your points, which I believe Wulls echoed, as well. :wave: Michael

[Bob Lyman_dup1]

Although I have not been able to attend a summer school for a couple years now, I have to go with the Captain on this one.

Piping summer schools provide access to the top notch players in your hobby (or lifestyle depending on how you view it, for me it's a little more than a hobby sometimes :wink: ), this enables you to take advantage of their knowledge and make it your own. Making friendships is only part of it, but certainly a benefit. Yes I'll learn a few new tunes and while the time there is short, I still get an opportunity to seek out the opinion the experts. There were many things I didn't know about my playing that my first instructor could not impart to me because he himself was not advanced enough, but after the first year (1999) with Ken and the other instructors at the Ontario School of Piping (shameless plug :D ) I learned far more in one week than I had in two previous years.

We view the world with a wide peripheral vision when we begin something anew, but as we become familiar ney comfortable with it our focus narrows and we see less and less of the broader picture with which we first started because it's no longer new.

Aside from the quality of knowledge available at these schools, I believe one of the primary benefits is to allow us the opportunity to take a step back and get a broader picture of our playing from folks more advanced than ourselves or maybe even our instructors.

I come away from the experience energized about my playing and excited to tackle something new.

To address Wulls comments about maintenance, etc. I learned more about that in one week from Ken than I had prior to that and it's knowledge that although I paid money for I gladly impart to the members of my band whenever possible.

[Melissa Bautz]

Originally posted by Wulls:
My personal slant is that there is little point in signing up for a school if all you are going to learn is a few new tunes......
What is the point paying good money for something you can learn yourself :shrug:
My approach is to teach HOW to play tunes, How to interpret music, how to play together as a band (if that is the aim), How to set up a set of pipes, How to work with reeds, How to analyse your method of playing.
There is little point in teaching something you can pick up on your own so I try to pass on the experience that I have learned over the years.
I also prefer a hands on approach. How many schools let you pick a reed, figure out what is wrong with it,carve it to suit (under instruction) and set it up in your own chanter ?????? That is the sort of thing that is not done enough in a workshop setting.
(IMHO :thumb: ) Wulls: I totally agree with you that piping school should cover the "how to" aspect of each tune type's idiom, of reed maintenance, of reed manipulation, of instrument set-up, etc...with an eye for the student becoming self sufficient at those tasks.

I was lucky enough to attend a school that covered all of those issues last year. It was the first time I had attended a piping school in nearly 20 years. The first time I attended was the College of Piping Summer School in Idyllwild, California.

Anyway, last year I attended Ian Whitelaw's and Murray Henderson's summer school. It was stellar. I learned reel-idiom, strathspey-idiom, jig-idiom, hornpipe-idiom, 2/4-march-idiom, and piobaireachd-idiom...with the aid of brand-new tunes of course. It was a stellar experience. Of course, I have been piping for the past 20 years so it is not to say that I learned tune-idioms from scratch at last year's school. Rather, Ian & Murray were able to tease out some habits I had that were not conducive to the desired idiom. Once I was aware of my habits, I was able to change them...thus achieving the desired idiom. That is what piping schools and weekly instruction should be all about.

I also learned (with supervision) reed manipulation. Exactly where to shave the reed if needed and why and how. How to revive a reed by poking. How to ease up a reed w.o. shaving it. How to accommodate for moisture changes.

So, I maintain, that such schools do exist out there. I think Ian's & Murray's school is up and running again this year in July again...in California again.

Best of luck to everyone going to piping schools this year.

They are worth a year's worth of regular weekly lessons IMHO!
Melissa

[Ryan Murray]

To continue on with Melissa's post,
I've been to a lot of piping workshops and this March I went to a workshop that Ian Whitelaw put on in San Francisco.
It was very easily the best piping workshop I've ever been to. Ian brought down Dave Hilder and there was a HUGE wealth of knowledge between the two of them.
On one day Ian pased around a bunch of sinclair chanters and Ross reeds right out of the box - he spent a long time showing us how to work on/manipulate them - and also how to properly make and use a poker. They then looked at all of the reeds we had worked on and showed us what we had done right and wrong and by the end we each had a great reed.
We also worked on Cane drone reed manipulation and synthetic drone reed manipulation.
We worked on a lot of tunes and there was even a good amount of one on one or two on one time. I also feel that my MSR playing was greatly improved. The focus of the workshop was ensemble so we also worked on tuning each others pipes, tuning pipes together, and different strategies for getting your band ready and sounding brilliant on the day. Often I am dissapointed with workshops I go to feeling that they just skim over the surface of the idioms and of bagpipe setup, but this one really dug in.
Not to mention it was extremely affordable.
I will send all my students to Ian's workshops in the future and I hope that more people will attend if he does it next year. I will definately be going down to LA for his summer workshop with Murray Henderson.
Hope this was helpful
Thanks

[Andrew L. Hagen]

Piping schools have a lot to offer to grade one pipers. I'd never recommend a piping school for any student below that level.

When you think about it, good grade one pipers will be searching for different tactics, styles, techniques and philosophies so they can build a broader understanding of piping. Furthermore they're usually searching for confirmation regarding the "correctness" of how they've been taught in the first place.

If you send anyone under grade one (or arguably grade 2) to one of those schools, I think, personally, it will result in confusion and possibly insecurity.

[Melissa Bautz]

Wow Andrew. That is definitely an extreme (and unique) point of view.

I attended the College of Piping School in California when I was a newbie (had been playing for 6 months). And I learned heaps and heaps. It was a great thing for me and it advanced my playing dramatically.

I think individual results (that a person realizes from attending a school) can and will vary dramatically depending upon the piping school/student match; which applicable to any type of learning I suppose.

I sure hope that everyone who attends a school gets something positive and useful out of it.

Best to all,
Melissa

[Andrew L. Hagen]

Hi Melissa. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that piping schools are not worth the money, nor am I saying that they can't do "newbies" any good.

I simply wouldn't send any of my own students until they reach grade one. Here's part of the reason why... These colleges offer instruction by the most qualified pipers in the world. These instructors are able to make a huge impression on grade one players because grade one players are able to "talk the talk" with the big guys and get something out of it. Any of my students under grade one will still be learning "the talk" with me.

I guess I think of it this way; if you're teaching someone to drive, why practice parallel parking in a Corvette?

Andrew

[Melissa Bautz]

Yes, Andrew, I can see your point there. I truly can. And I must admit that I, personally, got a lot more out of my piping school experience as a Gr 1 player than I did as a Gr 5. That is true. Very interesting.
Melissa

[Andrew Lenz]

I'm not too convinced about that Grade I thing. It's not unlikely that I knew more than the average Grade IV piper, but at the school I attended, I wanted to "practice parallel parking in a corvette" or maybe even "how to set the timing belt" but I got mostly "let's drive in a straight line." And that was in the advanced class.

As a rank beginner, 100% of school's material will be new. The value will only be limited by the ability of the beginner to absorb. As high-graded piper, a school may afford a rare exposure to alternative approaches of the world's top pipers---on the other hand, in the structured part of the curriculum, a much smaller (tiny?) percentage of the material will be new.

What good is "talking the talk" if you are in a classroom with 10-15 other pipers just learning a new 2/4?

Maybe the school I attended was atypical and I need to attend a new one to get a fuller perspective. Even the organizer said it didn't go quite as he had hoped. I was given the opportunity to do a presentation to the entire group on the physics of sound, harmonics and just started on drone reed development when we ran out of time (we'd squeezed it in after the morning meeting and before the start of official class time), and though a number of students sought me out afterwards and said they wanted a hear the rest, it was at the end of the week and there wasn't time.

I should say, I really did enjoy the social aspect of the school and if I had lots of free time and money to blow, I'd attend in a second.

Andrew

[RyeWhisky Piper]

If only Grade I players attended these colleges and/or workshops, they would soon cease to happen. From a year of reading this site, it seems a pretty safe bet for every Grade I piper there are probably ten or more non-Grade I pipers. I just do not think the economics would be there to keep these colleges going if they counted on the Grade I population alone.

I could go on, such as everyone benefits from a change of pace, a change of face, and a change of place when it comes to learning, as well as other things, such as the immersion factor or sharing of comraderie to keep one inspired, but my first point is so powerful. Cut out about 90% or more of your possible market and almost any endeavor is going to fail.

[scotchboiler]

Most of these schools don't have many Grade I pipers. The Balmoral schools may be an exception. Even then, a top grade player is going to need a great deal of personal attention to make a significant improvement to their technique, and in a classroom that may not be feasible. The overwhelming majority of students are Gr. IV players or beginners.

If your goal is to socialize with pipers other than members of your band, and some of world-class talent, most camps will do well in that department.

Frankly, the auditioning aspect of these schools is not impressive--if anything, they tend to underrate most students' abilities. I would rather see someone challenged to play a little above what they're comfortable with than below it. Also, there is FAR TOO MUCH TIME SPENT ON THE PC! If we're supposed to be learning the PIPES, then that is what we should be playing!

We oldsters especially need much more focus on tone, tuning, band setup, and reed manipulation than is customarily available at these camps. If I were planning a school, that is what I would have the older students doing EVERY day, ALL the time. Technique and expression have their place, but older students are not likely to develop new skills in those areas in a week, certainly not like the kids.

While we're at it, how about having the school in a location without silly restrictions on when and where you can play your pipes outdoors? What the heck is the point of going to a school at a nice location by the ocean when you aren't even allowed to play your pipes on the beach?? :rolleyes:


All that being said, there may be camps that don't have the problems mentioned above. I just haven't been to one yet.

[Snooper]

Interesting ideas on this topic.

I attended Piping School as a kid (The Gaelic College in Nova Scotia) and was exposed to some of the greatest players of that era. Angus Maclellan & Finlay MacNeil were there each of the years I went. Ann Gray was there (back then she was Ann Robinson) and Doug Boyd. I was a raw beginner (10-12 years old) and I can say with confidence that I would not be nearly the player I am now if I hadn't had that immersion each summer during my formative years.

After I reached Grade I, I attended Sandy Jones' camp with some friends/students. Exposure to Sandy, Colin Maclellan, Ed Neigh & Brian Yates helped my piping tremendously at that stage, so to a degree, I agree with Andrew. I learned a new appreciation for Piobaireachd from Ed Neigh (who wouldn't?).

Colin Maclellan went over my 2/4 March with me one day, and took my choppy, overexpressed, too pointy, stilted Clan McColl and made it into a swinging, lively, flowy, well-expressed march.

I think piping camp benefits everyone who attends. The instructors are all at the highest level of the art and can aid anyone, at any level, achieve their goals.

Just my £.02

jim ryan

[Andrew Lenz]

Originally posted by Snooper:
Colin Maclellan went over my 2/4 March with me one day, ... and made it into a swinging, lively, flowy, well-expressed march.Obviously, this wasn't in a classroom setting. How did this take place? How did you manage to get time alone with Colin?

Advanced (or even intermediate) pipers are going to benefit the most from individual instruction than a group setting, IMHO. If a school is conducive to that, fantastic!

Andrew

[Andrew L. Hagen]

This is bringing back memories of a winter seminar I attended in Mass. back in the early 90's. It felt like a practice chanter session at a band practice. I remember wanting to get one-to-one feedback on my piobaireachd, and obviously this never happened.

A few years ago I attended a drumming seminar Gordon Parkes put on in Dunedin, FL. At first it was like sitting in on a band practice. But after a while the higher grade drummers started picking his brain, and it turned into a truly fantastic afternoon.

One way to make these workshops more useful for grade 1 and 2 pipers and drummers, is simply to group them (first of all), and let them loose on the speaker for 5 hours or so.

The answer - simplify it.

BTW - if anyone ever introduces a PowerPoint presentation to a bagpipe workshop, don't tell me or I'll puke.

[Snooper]

It was definitely outside a classroom setting.

I think it took some single malt. Just kidding.

I asked him. Seriously, that's all it took. "Can you have a listen to my March some time this week?" "Sure, catch me after dinner"

I tackled him (then apologized), then played the 1st part of my March. I don't recall getting thru the 1st part actually. He stopped me, explained the way his father taught him how to play 2/4 Marches. I tried it, he coaxed me thru it and that was that. Whole thing took maybe 10 minutes.

I honestly feel the folks instructing at camps LOVE being there for the most part. Towards the end of an entire summer I'm sure it's grueling, but to be a luminary in your passion, and to be surrounded by people who share that passion every day...c'mon...how bad can it be?

Just my £.02

jim ryan

[Snooper]

Andrew Hagan,

I wonder if there would be a market for a summer camp targeted at registered Grade I/II players.

Quick, get the car, we're rich!

Not to sound hoity-toity about it, but like golf, people who can shoot in the 70's need to work on different things than people who shoot in the 90's (me).

Just a thought.

jim ryan

[Andrew L. Hagen]

Snooper,

I'm not entirely sure if the market could sustain a summer camp for grade one and grade two players. Obviously there's not enough of them to make it profitable. BUT the summer camps (or workshops) that currently exist might consider a different, more effective approach towards these players thereby attracting more people.

To respond to your analogy, I think that even top amateur golfers would pay big bucks to pick Tiger Wood's brain in a casual seminar setting as I described above. This as opposed to Tiger Woods teaching top amateur golfers how to grip a club. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems reasonable.

[colin maclellan]

Originally posted by Snooper:

I tackled him (then apologized), then played the 1st part of my March. I don't recall getting thru the 1st part actually. He stopped me, explained the way his father taught him how to play 2/4 Marches. I tried it, he coaxed me thru it and that was that. Whole thing took maybe 10 minutes.

I honestly feel the folks instructing at camps LOVE being there for the most part. Towards the end of an entire summer I'm sure it's grueling, but to be a luminary in your passion, and to be surrounded by people who share that passion every day...c'mon...how bad can it be?

Just my £.02

jim ryan Hello Jim

Well I remember that well. I am going to be in New York next week with 30 Scottish piping kids and I was thinking it would be nice to meet up with you - but now I see you are in Arizona! How did that happen?

Interesting what you say about the instructors loving to be there, Honestly, I hope this does not sound too corny but when I am at a school I am deeply envious of the students. I always think how great it must be to have a week to pick people's brains and do nothing but improve your own playing. I'm sure most of the other instructors would agree with me.

I haven't taught a summer school for about a decade now, I must say it is a missing part of the Scottish set up. When I was growing up we all went to a school held by Highland Region where the teachers were folk like John Burgess, Hugh MacCallum, and Donald MacPherson. We were so lucky.

I can't see how any piper could say attending a summer school would not be worth the money. If you were to pick up even a couple of tips which improve your playing it would seem to me to be worth it and another perspective and viewpoint and a different set of ears to provide a critique is a value that is hard to put a price on.

Cheers

Colin

[Beth Foster]

Hey Colin,
If it weren't for NAAPD I would never be where I am or the other pipers in my band. I had to "grow" my own pipers from scratch out here in MT and with your help and Sandy's, Ed's, Brian's, Bill's and the whole pipe camp family the Shining Thistle PB wouldn't exist. A week never seems like enough but it keeps the spirit alive and renews the desire to keep piping. The fact that great pipers like you and the others are willing to pass on what you know continues the traditions to another generation.
Thank you!

[micpic]

I posed a question to a friend of mine about two months ago in reguards to attending the St.Andrew school this summer, whether it was money well spent and what to expect should I attend. I believe he also posted his answer to me on one of the forums, which sealed my decision in favour of attendance.
This may seem a bit winded, but I'll type it anyway. I was a side drummer, of twenty years or so, in one of the local bands. I switched to pipes five years ago ( for reasons I won't divulge here ). I learned the required 2/4s, 4/4s 3/4s etc. to earn my marching papers. Since I was at the grade two level in drumming, it came a little quicker,I suppose.
I need to know I've learned proper technique so I can progress. I do not mean to insult the local girls or boys, but receiving professional instruction in person is a bit prohibitive, since it costs a miilion dollars to get out of here, or bring somebody in. This only an opinion, but those here who have paid good money for instruction ( would )seem reluctant to pass on what they have learned, for obvious reasons, especially if they compete, and I can respect that. In local pipe band circles I'm still referred to as a the drummer trying to play pipes.
I know fellas like Jack Lee and Ken Eller provide long distance lessons, but nothing comes close, I would think, to the kind of personal instruction that a attendance at a piping and drumming school can provide. Taking ( long distance ) lessons supplements skills learned in these schools. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To Mr. Lenz, this is not to say I would not take lessons, for if any one of you distinguished players lived in town, I would of signed up long ago.

[Bob Lyman_dup1]

Mipic,

Which week are you attending OSPD? I'll be there week 1 so maybe we can hook up for a pint (or two :) ).

As for the value of summer schools, I still think there is plenty of value whether you're grade 1 or grade 5.

you get out what you put in to it and everyday I practice till my lips give out.

Most folks in my band go to either Sandy Jones school or the Balmoral schools here on the east coast. Me, I go to Canada just preference I guess and it was the first school I attended back in 1999.

All in all, I think the value is there for all skill levels and I encourage everyone one in my band to attend a school whenever possible.

[micpic]

For sure Bob, I'll be there week 1 also.

[Scott.Williams]

Hi Bob.

I'll be there both weeks (teaching full time Week 1 and part time Week 2 so I can have some time to take some lessons). It will be good to see you again!

I think Summer Schools are usually great value. Certainly, the ones I attended were (St. Ann's Gaelic College, Invermark, and The Ontario School of Piping). I never got to go to a summer school when I was first learning to play, but I had good teachers at home and learned fast. When I started teaching at St. Ann's Gaelic College in 1978 (and taught there most years until 1994), I always insisted on having two periods free each day to take classes, one light music and one piobaireachd. I learned so much from people like Finlay MacNeill, Bob Worrall and Ed Neigh, to name only three. Later, I had a chance to go to the Ontario School of Piping and will be returning for my tenth year in June. The first three years or so, I was a 100% student, but since then I've been fortunate to be able to teach part time and take instruction part time. I wouldn't miss it, and I always return to my own students renewed and invigorated. I love experiencing other teaching techniques, and I often come home with lots of new ideas to use with my own students.

[Piper Mum]

Originally posted by Andrew L. Hagen:
Snooper,

I'm not entirely sure if the market could sustain a summer camp for grade one and grade two players. Obviously there's not enough of them to make it profitable. BUT the summer camps (or workshops) that currently exist might consider a different, more effective approach towards these players thereby attracting more people.Piping Hot Summer Drummer in BC has an outstanding special class for top amatuers and new pros.

Another unique feature of PHSD is that everyone from chanter through pro enters the tune writing competition. My son went for the first time about nine years ago when he was nine years old and on chanter, and he came away very excited because it helped him understand what the notes meant.

[SgtMac]

Wow some good reasons to go here. Maybe next year for me then. Thanks All!

[dorothy]

I totally disagree that piping schools should only be for Grade I+ players. The best is none too good for a beginner. Fortunately, most of the giants in piping who teach at these workshops seem to enjoy working with beginners and pipers in the lower grades.

When I was active as a college professor, it was the practice to have the senior faculty teach the introductory courses. General courses are harder to teach than the more specialized ones, and I believe it requires more teaching skill to get a beginner on the right track than it does to clean up the subtleties in a stratspey or piobaireachd.

[The Captain]

Bravo Dorothy...I totally agree.... teaching is not only an avocation, it is a passion for a large number of instructors. Working with those that are not at the top of their game brings rewards far surpassing the effort sometimes. As well, it is in this area where an instructor's influence and knowledge can most effectively be used.

Ken

[Andrew L. Hagen]

Originally posted by dorothy:
I totally disagree that piping schools should only be for Grade I+ players. The best is none too good for a beginner. Fortunately, most of the giants in piping who teach at these workshops seem to enjoy working with beginners and pipers in the lower grades. I too disagree that piping schools should only be for grade one+ players! That's silly. I simply wouldn't send my own students to one until they reached grade one (or possibly two), unless they *wanted* to go - that's their money.

I would, however, actively encourage my grade one or grade two students to attend a piping school.

[Adrian Melvin]

Andrew,
Interesting thread to this discussion.
I teach summer schools and I make a point of sending as many of my students as possible to the summer schools to ensure they get the best possible teaching overall and advice in their early years. We , as teachers cannot be perfect and must all have some areas that we are not 100% in our teaching. So, summer schools quite often fill in the gaps and also I get feedback with different ways of doing things than what I use.
I am not slamming your teaching but , by the time your students are in grade 1 there might be some areas where you have not covered some areas or passed something on incorrectly etc. By then the the bad advice has turned into a bad habit and habits are very hard to break.
I like to treat the student as a precise commodity that I am always going to be careful with , and also always striving to make them reach their potential .
If you get the correct mental ideas for different kinds of tunes in the heads of your students early in their learning it will do them more good in my mind.
Just my opinion anyway.


Adrian Melvin

www.ibagpipe.com (http://www.ibagpipe.com)

[Andrew L. Hagen]

Originally posted by Adrian Melvin:
Andrew,

I am not slamming your teaching but , by the time your students are in grade 1 there might be some areas where you have not covered some areas or passed something on incorrectly etc. By then the the bad advice has turned into a bad habit and habits are very hard to break.

Adrian Melvin

www.ibagpipe.com (http://www.ibagpipe.com) Adrian,

I mentioned earlier that I would not only recommend, but insist that my grade one or two students attend piping schools. It's a long thread, and it's easy to miss, but you and I see clearly on this one. I'm a pro player, and I'm a professional educator, so I feel comfortable teaching students up to grade one. At that time, I feel they NEED to take flight and piping schools are a great means of doing that.

BTW - Adrian, I love your compositions!

[Tad Myers]

I think for my students it's a very good thing for them to go off and work with people like Ken and Adrian, it reinforces the fundamentals I've taught them and re-examines things in a different light. Getting another point of view and hearing a different approach expands their knowledge and reinforces what I do. It helps when they come back to me with a deeper trust that what I'm teaching them is correct.

I remember going off to schools myself and coming to the realization that my teacher wasn't a complete dunder-head.