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Old 09-26-2019, 05:28 PM   #21
Laap
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

As Harley has been permanently banned from this forum he has asked me to post the follow up from the lab people. He did not want to leave a dog on the chain when he has started something. The lab tech only tested 2 things to make a conclusion. He used a devise to test the moisture content of the reed and the rh of the air coming out from the pipes when they were being played.
The testing was in 51% rh and 82 rh I do not have a reason for this and the reed was at optimum moisture in less than 2 minutes of playing so not very long.
The chanter had to be taped up so they could measure the rh coming out of the end of it and they had a measurer in the end of the base drone.
The rh did not change when at 51% or when they again tested at 82% rh in the room so they make the judgement that the humidity outside the bag has no bearing on the pitch of the bagpipe once the reed was at the most moisture measurement. They used the standard International temperature to pitch deviation guide figures for orchestras to measure the pitch changes.
All done.


Ta
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:39 PM   #22
Green Piper
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Default Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Sounds good, but here in Colorado, we Pipe in RH of 20% or less in temps of greater than 32 Celsius.

Also realize that a chanter that is fully taped is not close to reality. Try repeating playing a high A, or even a D in significantly drier conditions.

Furthermore, two minutes is not realistic. Try something like 10 minutes.

Charlie
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:47 PM   #23
Laap
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Hello Charlie


I have asked why the rh was used and was explained that it is an average for the zone here. I am not a scientist. They just said that the testing they did proved that the external climate could not affect the climate in the bag with the pressure. The 2 minutes thing was done to determine when the reed had reached the maximum moisture and with the piper playing the reed they found that the number did not change after 2 minutes. I do not know what the number was or is. It is a clip thing attached to a device that measures the moisture content of the reed and this number just did not go up any more from 2 minutes. It cannot be too hard to test this with your own bag and reed as you would already have most of the gear they were using as part of your work. The reason they taped the chanter was because they had to put the measuring thing in the end of the chanter and when they started to play the air escaped from the holes before it got down to the end of the chanter.
I am doing this response because Harley can not because he has been permanently banned from this forum. I am sorry I cannot be much more informative.


Thankyou for your response. He can read it but that is all.


Ta
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Old 09-27-2019, 06:15 AM   #24
Green Piper
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Laap,

Thanks for reporting on this. It is interesting. I teach science techniques to undergrad students, and what I always stress is using what resources you have to get some data, then adjusting the setup from there.

What has been done is a good start from which to develop an experimental setup.

In the location I play at, my concern is a chanter reed that dries out while playing, which is something that Harley may not have in mind given that his climate is more humid.

Please encourage him to keep working on this and remind him that this kind of work benefits from utilizing the Engineering Design Cycle and peer-review.

Charlie
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:12 PM   #25
Laap
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Thankyou Charlie


Harley is part way through a project with these reed cover things and he could do with yapping to people like you for educated objective views and direction.


These reed covers have an electronic display that shows temp and RH and they are supposed to keep the reed at a controlled moisture but state it as RH. The manufacturers of silica like that is used in these caps told Harley that it is not possible for the silica to release moisture as silica is passive. The only way they can give up the moisture they contain is through fairly high temp, vacuum container or a high SST refrigerator or freezer.


The lab proved to Harley this device could not give up moisture by placing a dry wood sample of a know moisture content (11) in the reed seat in a chanter covered with one of these caps for 24 hours in a control container and measuring the wood moisture content only to find it has not absorbed any moisture at all. They also boo hoo the use of the term RH when referencing the moisture content of a reed as RH is a term for the moisture in the air not a solid object. They also touched on a point that you made to Harley on the bags that as one end of the chanter is open to atmosphere there is no way this device could maintain the alleged moisture content of the reed in a very dry low RH climate as the one you were mentioning. Especially as the silica cannot give up it's moisture in a passive state. They also question the 85% RH figure used as optimum because the air supply in the bagpipe is air at saturation. Maybe the silica providers have got it all wrong.



I saw an email from Jack Lee that said to suck on the reed with your mouth and this will be all you need to do to get the reed ready. Harley was ridiculed by quite a few at the thought of wetting a chanter reed but Jack Lee is Jack Lee.


Harley will be finishing this project soon but we are cautioning him against posting the findings after seeing how many pipers use these things and swear by the alleged results. The lab people feel this is an example of "The Emperors New Clothes" because the data from the silica manufactures is very clear and well publicized. The material is a passive desiccant and will contain the moisture it absorbes up to 40% of it's weight until external energy is applied.


Have you or anyone ever seen actual data on these devices? Harley has spent alot of time looking and while there are lots of testimonials no one can or will provide actual quantifiable data.



As Harley was reminded there is a society in the world today that still believe the earth is flat and they cannot be convinced other. He would do well to remember this before wasting his time trying to convince anyone of anything.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:20 AM   #26
Green Piper
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Funny...... there are many pipers who lick their reeds prior to playing. It does flatten the pitch of the reed, especially the top hand.

As for silica-gel, I have never seen it used except for moisture removal. Chanter caps that I have seen use other stuff to keep RH balanced, I use one and it uses gel packets that eventually dry out. In other words, for me, they lose moisture to the cap.

Again, I believe Harley is being obstinate in insisting that air at the chanter reed is at saturation OR he needs to explain how extreme arid environments do cause chanter reeds to dry and change pitch.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:24 AM   #27
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Are these the humidity devices Harley is questioning?

https://bovedainc.com/about-us/makes-boveda-different/

Charlie
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Old 09-30-2019, 05:18 PM   #28
David Murry
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Piper View Post
David,

Thanks for the update. I may try it next summer. So far, I have found that avoiding a spit-trap and seasoning has worked really well at allowing extended playing time without wonkiness from the chanter reed.

Charlie
Typically, a moose valve and a water tube trap is all I need for about an hour of playing before I start to go flat here. Exceptions are the really scorching humid days when temps are north of 88*.

Let me know if you try it out next year.

D
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:58 PM   #29
Green Piper
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Default Re: Temperature and Humidity effects on Piping

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Murry View Post
Typically, a moose valve and a water tube trap is all I need for about an hour of playing before I start to go flat here. Exceptions are the really scorching humid days when temps are north of 88*.



Let me know if you try it out next year.



D


I spent this summer playing without humidity control, just a spit tube to direct airflow to the back of the bag. It worked great. However, as the season cools, Iíll add back seasoning and maybe a tube trap. BTW, I always used DroneDry stocks with my drones. I donít really know how effective they are, but it gives a bit of peace-of-mind and I can remove drones without having to worry about knocking the drone reeds.

Right now, I am waiting for convincing data about RH in the pipe bag as well as at the location of the reed because I seriously doubt that RH is at saturation throughout the pipebag. However, I am willing to be proven incorrect as long as the data is sound and reproducible.

Charlie
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