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Old 05-23-2010, 10:57 PM   #1
Sir Matt
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Default "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

What exactly is the difference between the "Piobaireachd" and "Pibroch" spellings? I have always thought that "Piobaireachd" was simply the more formal spelling. However, I know that language varies by region and I have not traveled far enough to really know the exact extent to which the usage of the two spellings vary. I have never seen a competition entry form or piping newsletter that used "Pibroch." Is this not the case elsewhere in the world?

If you were writing an encyclopedia article about heavy music, which spelling would you think should be used?

OK, heres the reason for the last question: Wikipedia recently changed the title of its article on the subject from "Pobaireachd" to "Pibroch". When I checked the article's discussion page to see why the name had been changed, I found that a user had objected to the original spelling calling it "reconstructive hogwash" and "hyper-correct Celtic mist nonsense" among other names. I was insulted. I posted a reply asking that this act of vandalism be corrected (I used slightly more formal language). Maybe there is a good reason to use the article's new spelling, but "hyper-correct Celtic mist nonsense" is surly not one of them.

I have received no support from Wikipedia editors on the subject; most of them seem to spend most of their time citing or insulting various dictionaries. So I appeal to the piping community for an intelligent set of opinions. Is "Pibroch" in common usage behind my back, but I've had too stiff of a neck to see it? Does the usage vary by region? Which spelling do you, the pipers, think should be used in a formal setting such as an encyclopedia?
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Old 05-23-2010, 11:32 PM   #2
Iain Sherwood
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

It's just easier to spell that way, and the wonks at Wikipedia tend towards the LCD in all their articles. Gaelic spelling is hardly 'reconstructive hogwash,' and you might point that out.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:38 AM   #3
Adam Sanderson
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

The fuss usually stems from the fact that some Gaelic speakers object to the use of the word "Piobaireachd" as it's Gaelic meaning really translates as what you do on a pipe, in other words, play music, so it refers to all types of pipe music.

"Pibroch" is an Anglicised, easier to spell and pronounce, version of "Piobaireachd" that is neither here nor there, really.

The people that object to "Piobaireachd" seem to have a preference for the term Cel Mr, (which is fair enough, IMHO), with Cel Beag as the term for light music. This would make absolute sense in accordance with Gaelic convention.

(However, John and Archibald Campbell did have a go at inventing Cel Meadhonach, which to them meant "tunes as are neither constructed to the measure of Piobaireachd, nor adapted to the quick march or dance", but to us meant slow airs and jigs).

Nowadays "Piobaireachd" is the most widely used term for the big music, although of you get a group of piob-heads together, Cel Mr will be used just as much, if not more so.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:44 AM   #4
bob864
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

The EUSPBA uses the Gaelic spelling too. Google has about 3x as many hits for the English spelling.

Can't they put both in the title?

Ask him for a source. They seem to like sources.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:37 AM   #5
Curt
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Sanderson View Post
The fuss usually stems from the fact that some Gaelic speakers object to the use of the word "Piobaireachd" as it's Gaelic meaning really translates as what you do on a pipe, in other words, play music, so it refers to all types of pipe music.

"Pibroch" is an Anglicised, easier to spell and pronounce, version of "Piobaireachd" that is neither here nor there, really.

The people that object to "Piobaireachd" seem to have a preference for the term Cel Mr, (which is fair enough, IMHO), with Cel Beag as the term for light music. This would make absolute sense in accordance with Gaelic convention.

(However, John and Archibald Campbell did have a go at inventing Cel Meadhonach, which to them meant "tunes as are neither constructed to the measure of Piobaireachd, nor adapted to the quick march or dance", but to us meant slow airs and jigs).

Nowadays "Piobaireachd" is the most widely used term for the big music, although of you get a group of piob-heads together, Cel Mr will be used just as much, if not more so.
Adam, once again you sure can give an answer. Thanks
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:36 AM   #6
Aon Piobaire
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

I have been a fly on the wall when Gaelic speaking pipers have discussed this including at the School of Piping.
One point was that piobaireachd, literally translated, is "pipering" not "piping", which seems to bother some as well as the points Adam made previously.
So would it be "piobeachd" = piping; "piobaireachd" = pipering?
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:04 AM   #7
Adam Sanderson
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aon Piobaire View Post
I have been a fly on the wall when Gaelic speaking pipers have discussed this including at the School of Piping.
One point was that piobaireachd, literally translated, is "pipering" not "piping", which seems to bother some as well as the points Adam made previously.
So would it be "piobeachd" = piping; "piobaireachd" = pipering?
Well, the root of the word is in your own screen name.
Piobaireachd is simply what a piobaire does.
Is there a Gaelic equivalent of "Piping"? I don't know.

To say you play the pipes would be something like "Tha mi a' cluich na piob-mhir".

Pip-ing fits into that whole awkward Gaelic business of "no exact translation". Adding an ing becomes very formalised, we can say cadal for sleep, but we have to say tha e a 'na chadal, literally he is in his sleep for "sleeping". Seasamh, standing, has to be bha sinn an ar seasamh, literally we were in our standing. I began Gaelic classes in Aberdeen in 1970 when I was 10 years old. I still don't get it
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:19 AM   #8
Andrew Lenz
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

I really can't add much to the conversation other than to say that I completely disagree and am irked over anyone claiming that using the spelling "piobaireachd" is "reconstructive hogwash" and "hyper-correct Celtic mist nonsense".

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Old 05-24-2010, 03:33 PM   #9
Sir Matt
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Sanderson View Post
The fuss usually stems from the fact that some Gaelic speakers object to the use of the word "Piobaireachd" as it's Gaelic meaning really translates as what you do on a pipe, in other words, play music, so it refers to all types of pipe music.
That explains a lot. The person insisting on "Pibroch" right now is a self proclaimed "leading Gaelic lexicographer" (His words, I know nothing about his credentials).
Sadly everyone else has dropped out of the discussion (luckily that includes the person responsible for the hogwash and nonsense quotes) and neither me nor the lexicographer seem willing to yield ground. I think we both look like fools at this point.
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: "Piobaireachd" vs "Pibroch"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Matt View Post
What exactly is the difference between the "Piobaireachd" and "Pibroch" spellings? I have always thought that "Piobaireachd" was simply the more formal spelling. However, I know that language varies by region and I have not traveled far enough to really know the exact extent to which the usage of the two spellings vary. I have never seen a competition entry form or piping newsletter that used "Pibroch." Is this not the case elsewhere in the world?

If you were writing an encyclopedia article about heavy music, which spelling would you think should be used?

OK, heres the reason for the last question: Wikipedia recently changed the title of its article on the subject from "Pobaireachd" to "Pibroch". When I checked the article's discussion page to see why the name had been changed, I found that a user had objected to the original spelling calling it "reconstructive hogwash" and "hyper-correct Celtic mist nonsense" among other names. I was insulted. I posted a reply asking that this act of vandalism be corrected (I used slightly more formal language). Maybe there is a good reason to use the article's new spelling, but "hyper-correct Celtic mist nonsense" is surly not one of them.

I have received no support from Wikipedia editors on the subject; most of them seem to spend most of their time citing or insulting various dictionaries. So I appeal to the piping community for an intelligent set of opinions. Is "Pibroch" in common usage behind my back, but I've had too stiff of a neck to see it? Does the usage vary by region? Which spelling do you, the pipers, think should be used in a formal setting such as an encyclopedia?
Wikipedia appears to be authoritative and useful, but it has so many flaws, inaccuracies, gross simplifications, prejudices, and propagandistic leanings that as a professional research librarian I have to say that it is of no serious value to either students or professionals. As with much in the internet era, Wikipedia is a bad idea who's time has come, sadly. I'll grant it suits the age within which we live. Thus, how they might, at Wikipedia, decide (this week at least) to spell piobaireachd is of no consequence.

Wiki-wiki is Hawaiian for quick. One might well be justified in adding sand after that. The instant folks, for whom packaging and delivery dominates over substance. For all the so-called "good" entries, there are a slew of mediocre and downright misinformed or distinctly slanted ones. In my country university librarians, lecturers and professors (esp. in physics!) almost universally condemn the use of this resource in an academic setting. Students cannot cite Wiki articles for their survey papers or for any short topics. Yes, printed books can and do contain error and poor scholarship and prejudice, but do not have the wide-spread influence of Wiki and other much smaller insta-fix info sites.

Pibroch as a spelling makes great sense, as most of us do not have a clue what to do with all that Gaelic orthography. I'm emotionally attached to the full spelling, but I am ready for pibroque or pibrok or peabrock or whatever does the job.
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