Welcome to
the forums at bobdunsire.com
bobdunsire.com forums bobdunsire.com forums
You can reset your password by going here. Be sure to try your current email and any email addresses you may have had in the past.
Otherwise please use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the forums. In order to help you, please provide the following info: Your Display Name from the old forum and any possible email addresses you would have used before. Without that info we cannot locate your account.


Go Back   Bob Dunsire Bagpipe Forums > General Discussion > Music
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Music Discuss specific tunes, the writing of tunes, other questions, concerns, etc. related specifically to the music or music books.

Platinum Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-07-2006, 09:16 AM   #21
ratherbpiping
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 2,513
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Yeah, like Kenton said. Just to re-emphasis, The recording of the competing grade three bands, does not replace, or offer as a substitute, or even come close to being an alternative to the selling of "professional" recordings done by bands that are sold for profit and have all the permissions and etc. That is why I contend thare is no theft or harm done.

In fact, it enhances those sales by putting the tunes outhere and people who hear a grade three band playing something may look specifically for that tune played by a recording band.

If the CD's were mass marketed as the Worlds CD's are, I would agree that harm is being done because it is an alternative to recordings that have all the legal i's dotted and t's crossed.

The darker Grey is the grade three and four band that does a small recording and the CD's are sold by members to friends and relitives as fund raisers. This practice I could see warrenting this discussion, but not recording of bands in competition for the band members to hear themselves and peers. It does not compete with other CD sales.
__________________
We do this for fun, travel, and to meet people
ratherbpiping is offline   Reply With Quote
Gold Sponsor
Old 07-07-2006, 09:35 AM   #22
ratherbpiping
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 2,513
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Kenton said "And I'm asking, with NO response so far, where is the band responsibility in all this? "

This is a good question and one that I think better gets to the point many of the anti recording people are saying.

A band buys a piece of music (sheet or book). Does this give the band the right to play that piece of music? Otr is the music to sit on a shelf somewhere and collect dust?

A band buys a piece of music. Are they only allowed to perform the music away from the public? hidden where no one can hear them in fear of copyright infringement?

Or is it the bands responsibility to contact each cmposer, book publisher, and recording company and ask for permission to perform that music in public? And heaven forbid that the band be given a donation in recognition for their performance.

I think many people take themselves too seriously if they think that we low life bands are a threat to SFU, FMM or S&D in record sales,

I don't think it is showing disrespect for writers by wanting to play their music and buying their books and CD's. If they really don't want people playing their music with out their permission, they can put that as a footnote in the books they publish in along with contact information, so we can contact them.

Note, I am not talking about producing records for mass sale here. I am talking about bands performing music.
__________________
We do this for fun, travel, and to meet people
ratherbpiping is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 09:54 AM   #23
ratherbpiping
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 2,513
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

It has been stated by several that the bag pipe world is particularily lax in its adherence to copyright law. This may be true, as witnessed by attitudes like mine, however, let's look at other music forums.

Many people hire DJ's for weddings, birthday's and other gathering's. Some of these DJ's have stacks of CD's that they have re mixed or compiled and are played to paying groups to entertain guests. Some of these DJ's are Full timers others are partimers. The income from the practice is either their major income or significant supplemental income. Do they have permission form Composers, publishers, and recording companies?

Garage Bands, play copyrighted music, they charge for perfomance in the same way the DJ'd do, They may never cut a CD. but their income can be respectable.

Compare this to a pipe band. They do maybe 15 performances a year. they may be paid $500 per performance. The band consists of 30 members ($17 per member). The band members personally pay for transportation, articles of uniform, maintain their instruments. They personally gain nothing. There is no supplemental income to the band member. The band uses the money for band equipement, uniform parts not supplied by the member, and other expenses.

I am not saying we are not bad , look at them. Well maybe I am, but the point being, There are a lot of targets more worthy of this kind of attention with greater gains in persuing, than the local grade four or grade three pipe band.
__________________
We do this for fun, travel, and to meet people
ratherbpiping is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 01:59 PM   #24
ratherbpiping
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Sunny California
Posts: 2,513
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:

Making a couple of copies and passing them out IS NOT THE SAME as copying something wholesale and putting it out on the Internet, or selling it, or anything else even though it's technically just as illegal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An claidheamh soluis said

"With respect, it's exactly the same thing. An easy to understand analogy would be if I walked past a fruit stall and helped myself to one apple and then said: "It's only one piece of fruit and I'm hungry. It's not as if I'm going to sell it to someone else". That may well be the case but it remains, in law and in morality, theft."

An claidheamh soluis


I would agree with that if Kenton had said make a couple of copies of a copyrighted CD and passing it out to friends, but that is not what this is about. This is about recording a grade three or four band and passing it out to them. If you read what KEnton Said you will see that Kenton also says that techincally it is illeagal. His point is where is the loss. In you example, your are talking about taking something from some one. There is a cost to the person you are taking from. That is not what this discussion is about.
__________________
We do this for fun, travel, and to meet people
ratherbpiping is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 03:32 PM   #25
Andrew Lenz
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Posts: 10,561
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Mike, truth be told, as far as recording a competition and handing it out only to the bands performing, personally, if I was a composer of said tunes, I couldn't care less. That's more or less personal use as far as I'm concerned. But by the letter of the law, it is probably appropriate to consult the composer. Would I personally? Probably not. Might that get me in trouble? Pretty unlikely, given my reasoning above.

I just jumped in as there was, what sounded to me, an statement put forth that copying and passing out tunes from a music book causes "no harm." This is a statement that I completely disagree with—there absolutely is harm. The question is the harm tolerable or not.

Kenton, reading back, I honestly don't see where you think I took you out of context. I don't read that you were arguing that copying and selling something for a profit was ok—you never said that and my quote of (and my reply to) your writings never said/implied that. But if anyone reads it that way, my apologies. We're all just pipers here battling together against the world . . .


Andrew
__________________
Andrew T. Lenz, Jr.
www.BagpipeJourney.com - Reference for Bagpipers

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." ---Mark Twain
Andrew Lenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:59 AM   #26
Kenton Adler
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Batesville Arkansas
Posts: 1,691
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

No worries Andrew,

I just didn't want there to be any question about where I stand, and the way you snipped, somone coming in and just reading from that point forward could have easily misconstrued and later said that, "Kenton Adler said...", when it wasn't what I said at all. I've been around the Internet for FAR too long and seen it happen way too many times.

K
__________________
Kenton Adler

For best results - PLAY LOUD
Kenton Adler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 12:59 PM   #27
bob864
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 9,375
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

It would be really great if authors of tune books spelled out exactly what uses are allowed. That is, to pre-approve some uses.

US copyright law allows public performance of copyright material without permission in the case where performers are not compensated and any admission fees (after paying reasonable costs) are used for educational or charitable purposes. http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ Section 110 (Chapter 1). Based on my limited understanding of Scottish Games and Bands, it seems most of their performances are not illegal.

But legally one could only record stuff that's PD. Excepting fair use, that is. I could see arguing that it was fair use to record one's self to see how one was doing, but it doesn't seem like offering the recording for sale would count. In fact, I seem to recall some provision for a teacher to make a recording of a concert for that type of use but I don't remember where.

Bob
__________________
bob864 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 01:54 PM   #28
andrew w
Forum Member - Shy or Quiet
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 6
Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

As a piper/composer who has been recorded 3 times on pipe band recordings 4 times with folk groups,it has always been my honor to have hear that it was recorded and that it has been well receive and often played by others.Well it might be in my interset to go after a piece ot the pie I do not compose for the dollar or to recoginzed hence me hiding under this screen name.Music is a gift to shared with all I have delusions of where I stand in the world but it is cool to have bands like metro police ,La Scots And the others playing my stuff and I would like to take to time thank them and all the others.
andrew w is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Silver Sponsor

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:05 PM.