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Old 09-15-2017, 07:23 AM   #1
Robin73
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Default Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

I'm probably foolishly setting out to learn some Piobaireachd on my own, without a teacher for now.

I want to play the Urlar from the Lament for Mary McLeod but have not got past the second bar due to an ornament I've not seen before.

It goes "e low-g f low-g" onto an e crochet.

Is this an e throw? If so, I've seen this printed with low 'a's instead of low 'g's as well.

Could someone please explain the correct fingering for this combination of notes? Does the pinky stay down when the f is played? Is the version with the low 'a's an acceptable alternative?

Any help much appreciated.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:39 AM   #2
colinmaclellan
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin73 View Post
I'm probably foolishly setting out to learn some Piobaireachd on my own, without a teacher for now.

I want to play the Urlar from the Lament for Mary McLeod but have not got past the second bar due to an ornament I've not seen before.

It goes "e low-g f low-g" onto an e crochet.

Is this an e throw? If so, I've seen this printed with low 'a's instead of low 'g's as well.

Could someone please explain the correct fingering for this combination of notes? Does the pinky stay down when the f is played? Is the version with the low 'a's an acceptable alternative?

Any help much appreciated.
You're describing a movement which does not exist if I'm reading this properly. I think it's an edre and you probably have a misprinted copy... should be lo a's.

Hard to be absolutely 100 percent without actually seeing it.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:39 AM   #3
el gaitero
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Respectfully...why think an ablility to do this alone? And ,sitting more or less,in the cradle of piping with vast resources available ,...why not engage a good instructor to take you there and beyond?
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:08 AM   #4
Macswegan
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Could you tell us what sheet music you are looking at? (Kilberry, Piobaireachd Society, etc.) Somebody who has the same music might be able to take a look and help.
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:47 AM   #5
Pppiper
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

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Originally Posted by Robin73 View Post
I want to play the Urlar from the Lament for Mary McLeod but have not got past the second bar due to an ornament I've not seen before.
Not foolish, but you are fighting a very uphill battle.

So I certainly echo the calls for seeking out an instructor, even if only on occasion, to help you along.

That being said, it irks me when people simply say "ask an instructor," and neglect to help any further. Therefore, to try and answer your question, I regress:

I've been working on this tune as well (just started, actually). The movement to which you're referring is supposed to be an edre ... either you mis-spoke in your description, or the manuscript you happen to have contains an error in the writing of it (or it's not clear, i.e. chicken-scratch).

And yes ... I've heard edre's sometimes referred to as a "throw to e."

Here's a site that outlines a lot of these movements:
http://www.teachyourselfbagpipes.co.uk/pibthrow.html

Nice video outlining the movement:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...b_mqktlXapGKOg

As to low a's vs. low g's in the movement, I'm not going to say that the low g's are 100% wrong, but I think it's likely they could be set that way in error. It's not as far-fetched as one might think. I'm still very new at this genre, so I can only offer my own knowledge. Plenty of others here can assist.

Value of some instruction:

When I first sat down to give piobaireachd a try, I wanted to at least try and explore for a while before heading over to a teacher. At least in my case, I had SOME instruction in it when I was really young. But I didn't like it at all, so I had very vague memories of lessons, and there's tons of institutional knowledge that's needed, and much of it is non-intuitive.

Since I knew full-well my short-comings in terms of piobaireachd knowledge, I did what I do with most music .. I learn by hear, and use the written music as a guide. Honestly, aside from a few bumps, I daresay I didn't make out so poorly at all. In fact, I was able to accomplish quite a bit.

That being said though, some of those "bumps" I could have done without. The music I'd chosen to work from, though overall very good, did have some errors in the notation ... these had me scratching my head quite a bit, as I was hearing things in the accompanying recording which seemed contrary to the written music.

Eventually, I took it upon myself to mark up the manuscript, and politely, asked the man who'd set the music if he could shed some light on my confusion. He was VERY gracious, and admitted that all of my quandaries were, in fact, errors in the notation.

I was rather proud of my ability to peg these out, simply from listening .. but, in one case, the errors had me starting to rehearse playing a movement called an embari completely wrong.

So I had my reasons for waiting on seeking instruction, and I stand by those reasons. BUT ... had I decided to seek instruction earlier, I would have had far-less trouble learning that movement.

That's only one example, and I've found plenty others since. Personally, it annoys me that there's SO much to the genre that's utterly non-intuitive .. and it can be VERY tough for new-comers to explore at their leisure. And frankly, an instructor is one person, with one perspective ... and piobaireachd is a realm that's rife with conflicting styles, opinions, approaches, interpretations ... all mixed into all sorts of unspoken conventions which are seldom explained in an accessible manner.

But that's the way it is ... all this adds to the complexity of the music. If it wasn't difficult, then it would lose much of it's appeal. It's hard .. and it's the "hard" that makes it great.

All the best to you.

Cheers,
~Nate

Last edited by Pppiper; 09-15-2017 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:09 AM   #6
Pppiper
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin73 View Post
I'm probably foolishly setting out to learn some Piobaireachd on my own, without a teacher for now.

Any help much appreciated.
Another pretty nifty video, which outlines a lot of the movements found in piobaireachd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7PAuz0WUZ8

Also, please note, an edre DOES come up from time to time in light music. One of my favorite hornpipes by Bruce Gandy features edres and rodins in the 3rd part.

https://pipetunes.ca/tunes/fulton-eyes/
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:37 AM   #7
Robin73
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Warnings noted and suggestions appreciated.

It looks like this was a notation error. My source was the last page of this document: http://94aircadets.ca/images/bandrec...hapter%205.pdf

I then looked at this: http://www.therealviperpiper.com/viewtopic.php?t=291 and assumed they were 'g's, which they are clearly not.

Yes, the dangers of relying on written notation...

I expect if I get more into this artform I will seek out a teacher and get some transmission from the lineage...
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin73 View Post
Warnings noted and suggestions appreciated.

I expect if I get more into this artform I will seek out a teacher and get some transmission from the lineage...
Good man (or woman)?

Some other good resources, Archie Cairn's instruction book, and Jim McGillivray's "Piobaireachd Fingering." Also, (I just ordered this), Andrew Wrights book on Piobaireachd interpretation.
Additionally, Jim McGillivray's site, and the Lee & Sons site are really cool as well for self-exploration. Jim's site was what kicked me off. He graciously allows one to listen to the whole tune to preview. Upon purchase, you receive an mp3, as well as matching notation.

http://pipetunes.ca/tunes/?frm-searc...ficulty-level=

The Lee site is great, and REALLY extensive, but you can only sample about 20 to 30 seconds of a given tune, at most. But similar to Jim's site, purchasing a tune gets you a well-played mp3, as well as good notation.

https://leeandsonsbagpipes.com/produ...piobaireachds/

Lastly, the Piobaireachd Society website is rather wonderful. There are lots of full samples, and many are free to non-subscribers as well.

http://www.piobaireachd.co.uk/

What I really like about Jim M. and Jack L.'s sites is that the notation provided is very closely matched to the auditory reference. This helps to avoid the confusion of hearing one thing from a player, but seeing something completely divergent on the page. Style? Error? It's hard to know, so those gents' websites really offer some invaluable resources.

Have fun!!

Cheers,
~Nate
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:00 AM   #9
Ron Teague
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

in the second bar of Mary MacLeod there is a DRE which is what I think you mean
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:11 AM   #10
CelticHiker
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Default Re: Is it an "e throw"? (Lament for Mary McLeod)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin73 View Post
Yes, the dangers of relying on written notation...
There are plenty of errors in the written notation, but when you are using free scores found on the internet, you increase them exponentially. I would suggest you invest in either the Bilberry book, the Piobaireachd Society book (Book 5 for this tune), or one of the two sites Nate references above. If your just "trying it out" as it were, the websites or PS book will be cheaper, but if you think you are going to give piobaireachd a go, the Kilberry book will be money well spent, and its significantly less than the cost of all the PS books (up to 16 now I believe).

I always find it interesting to find out why people who have access to instruction don't seek it out at the beginning of their endeavors rather than after they have been struggling (and often doing things incorrectly and making them hard to change)? The issue of cost is often put forward, and I certainly understand that weekly on-going lessons take a chunk of cash, but a one off lesson with a knowledgable instructor to go over the ground of a tune shouldn't break the bank. Assuming you record the lesson, you will then have something you can work from for the foreseeable future, and, if you choose a good instructor, you will also have the knowledge that what you are working on is correct and you won't have to go back and un-learn it at some point in the future.
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