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Music Discuss specific tunes, the writing of tunes, other questions, concerns, etc. related specifically to the music or music books.

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Old 07-03-2006, 09:49 AM   #11
Bob
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

I'm going to move this discussion to the Music Forum - I know that may not be the 'best' place for this thread, but the Beer Tent is often not a forum for substantive discussion (sorry ) - and the Music forum has 'hosted' discussions of this sort in the past.
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Old 07-06-2006, 07:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Mike , I'm afraid that what constitutes "fair use" is in fact defined in the law- not as a matter of individual conscience as you suggest. You might want to check about fair use sometime. It could be that your intended use falls into that category, or it could be specifically prohibited. The author can grant license to use the music, and many will,(just ask) but the user does not have any right to grant it to himself. In the final analysis one has to decide who owns the intellectual property you wish to use. One's convenience or lack thereof is an easy excuse, not justification.
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Old 07-06-2006, 08:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Am I missing something here? As an ASCAP writer member; I was taught that the way for writers to collect substantial royalties was to report performances of their registered works with ASCAP or BMI, who then reimburse the writer quarterly, according to their payment structure + points plan.
Isnt it up to the copyright holder/writer to do the leg work (or am I wrong?)...the pipeband composer will literally wait forever until one of their works shows up in a BMI survey.
As a writer, I'd rather sell the chart, be informed of the performance + submit for the royalties rather than charge the performer thru the nose for the rights.
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Old 07-06-2006, 08:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

If I may be practical for a moment, "No Tolerance" is a statement of intent. I know of no case where it is a practical reality. Something has to be measurable with infinite precision to establish a quantity is in fact exactly zero. I, at least, know of none such.

On one occasion I was able to contact a composer whose unpublished music I wished to obtain. I felt, and still feel, a composer should have the chance to decide. We don't need no stinking court. ( A possible violation of copyright for Sierra Madre here.)
Speaking practically, it would be a big help along the correct path if we had a way to contact composers. Wouldn't it?

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Old 07-06-2006, 12:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Right on, Charlie ( I am also an ASCAP member, btw. I owe you a beer at Killington, methinks) I think part of the issue here is whether the chart was sold to begin with. My point is many of those who compose for pipes would probably grant permission no problem, but it remains their right to grant or not to grant, not for someone else to decide that for them.
Personally, I'm happy to let people use my tunes but not to take it on themselves to distribute them without my permission. I don't expect to make a lot of money composing (breaking even is perfectly acceptable), but I don't support music piracy.
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Old 07-06-2006, 03:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:
And it isn't legal, or right for a member of a band to buy a copy of Scots Guard and copy a tune out of it and pass it out to the rest of the band. . . . [SNIP] . . . And I don't see the harm in that either. It's not copying the tune and claiming it as your own, or putting it your book and distributing it to the masses for a profit.
(I just started reading this discussion.) The problem with the above argument—"it's not copying the tune and claiming it as your own, or putting it your book and distributing it to the masses for a profit"—is that it completely disregards a main concept of copyrights. Imagine it being OK to copy books, movies, recordings, etc. as long as you are not copying the tune and claiming it as your own, or putting it your book and distributing it to the masses for a profit. It would be OK under that senario to scan the entire Scots Guards books and post them to the Internet. Or the lastest SFU CD.

Here's the fundamental problem: it undermines sales of said product. If everyone can get it for free (or practically free), what's the point of purchasing the product? Would you invest in recording a CD for your band if people just copied it and gave it away to anyone they run into?

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Old 07-06-2006, 03:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Hey Andrew,

I think another fundamental problem is not reading what someone says, mis-stating it, and then saying what the problem is with what they said. There should be a smiley here, but the gremlins don't appear to be co-operating.

I thought I said pretty clearly that IT IS NOT RIGHT TO USE OTHER PEOPLE'S COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL WITHOUT PERMISSION, but that just about everybody in piping does it by sharing a few copies of a tune with their band, and that I don't see where anyone is really being harmed by that practice even though it's technically illegal. By saying that bit about distributing it for profit I was just giving an example of something that would obviously be inherently wrong, NOT condoning it.

Making a couple of copies and passing them out IS NOT THE SAME as copying something wholesale and putting it out on the Internet, or selling it, or anything else even though it's technically just as illegal. And I'm pointing out that just about everybody does it, quite regularly, and doesn't see the harm.

And getting back to what started the discussion in the first place, someone recording a band competition at a Highland games and selling a few copies to some interested band members is NOT THE SAME as making a copy of the latest Hootie and the Blowfish record and re-selling it, or posting it somewhere for free downloads.

And I'm asking, with NO response so far, where is the band responsibility in all this? Technically, EVERY band performing a piece (at least for pay) should have permission of the author or the publisher of a non-public domain piece before it can be performed in public, much less recorded by someone, or distributed to anybody. How many bands are doing that for every tune they play? When was the last time you sent The Piobaireachd Society a check for performing a tune from one of the books in public for pay?

I think that idea of living to the letter of the law would nickel and dime every piper and band right out of the instrument. Or, limit us to playing nothing but traditional tunes that aren't in copyrighted books, or have everybody and their brother (or sister) up to their keesters in paperwork all the time, and no time to practice.

Sorry for the ALL CAPS here and there, but there is apparently some sort of signal-to-noise problem with this keyboard. I just want to be sure I'm being crystal clear.

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Old 07-06-2006, 05:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:
I think another fundamental problem is not reading what someone says, mis-stating it, and then saying what the problem is with what they said.
I guess I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. (As far as misstating, how did I misstate with a verbatim copy of your text?)



Quote:
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:
I thought I said pretty clearly that IT IS NOT RIGHT TO USE OTHER PEOPLE'S COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL WITHOUT PERMISSION, but that just about everybody in piping does it by sharing a few copies of a tune with their band, and that I don't see where anyone is really being harmed by that practice even though it's technically illegal. By saying that bit about distributing it for profit I was just giving an example of something that would obviously be inherently wrong, NOT condoning it.
Now it was my turn to perhaps not be clear! I know you weren't condoning selling someone else's work for profit. BUT, while a lot of folks don't see the harm, there is harm, the question is if it makes something OK if everyone does it, and/or the harm is relatively small. Where do you draw the line on how many people you can photocopy a tune for? 5 band members? 25 members? That's 5 or 25 copies of a book that may not sell—notice may, obviously not all are going to buy a copy regardless.

I just want to make sure people understand there is harm done. That was the point of my previous post. There is a victim.



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Old 07-07-2006, 08:35 AM   #19
Kenton Adler
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew T. Lenz, Jr.:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:
[qb]I think another fundamental problem is not reading what someone says, mis-stating it, and then saying what the problem is with what they said.
I guess I misinterpreted what you were trying to say. (As far as misstating, how did I misstate with a verbatim copy of your text?)


Easy. You snipped it and left out part. Completely changed the context if someone picked up and started reading at that point. It makes it sound like I said I had no problem with people copying something and distributing it for pay. Not your intention, but that's how it reads as you you quoted and snipped.
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: Recording Band Competitions Copyright protection concerns.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:

Making a couple of copies and passing them out IS NOT THE SAME as copying something wholesale and putting it out on the Internet, or selling it, or anything else even though it's technically just as illegal. And I'm pointing out that just about everybody does it, quite regularly, and doesn't see the harm.
With respect, it's exactly the same thing. An easy to understand analogy would be if I walked past a fruit stall and helped myself to one apple and then said: "It's only one piece of fruit and I'm hungry. It's not as if I'm going to sell it to someone else". That may well be the case but it remains, in law and in morality, theft.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenton Adler:

And I'm asking, with NO response so far, where is the band responsibility in all this? Technically, EVERY band performing a piece (at least for pay) should have permission of the author or the publisher of a non-public domain piece before it can be performed in public, much less recorded by someone, or distributed to anybody.
No further reponse needed on this because you are absolutely correct.

But on a final point: because everybody else does it, doesn't mean it's right.
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