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Beer Tent The general discussion forum, and the place to start a new "beer-tent-like" Piping Related discussion...

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Old 09-17-2019, 01:34 PM   #31
Harley G
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

I have been playing since I was 8 and it has always creeped me out the way some men touch you when trying to teach you how to hold the bag and squeeze and stuff.


The girls I know feel the same but none of us would ever say anything because you feel you will not be believed and that you are going to get someone in trouble. How do you know if they are being genuine or getting their jollies, you just don't.



I don't know GW but I know that if he was working under current WWC legislation he would never have been allowed to work with children without another adult present so he would not have had the opportunity to do what he has done. We should learn from this. It also protects against any false accusations.



If the system was better suited to the interests of us back then, as it is now, him, and all the grubby priests over here would not have had the opportunity to do these things.


As a kid you never feel you will be believed so you say nothing and these things just happen. As it happens, I am that kid that always did say something and my Tiger Mum always believed me first.


It is a shame to loose such a skilled piper just the same but awareness seems to be the best option as you cannot unbreak the egg.
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:57 PM   #32
Wulls
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gaitero View Post
Cuz....IMO,..whatís it got to do with bagpiping...anymore?


On this occasion your opinion does not really count for anything.
This is a piping forum where we are, sadly, discussing the probable career end of an outstanding piping talent with the full knowledge of the mod team.
I have no comment to make on Gordonís verdict.
However if you are not happy with the direction of this thread you donít have to contribute........ Or even be here.
Adam summed it up. Wind it in.


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Old 09-17-2019, 01:58 PM   #33
Wulls
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTallanambeann View Post
Seems to me that publicising and making it known to all within the piping world that a well known member of the community should not be allowed to work unsupervised with children wanting to become the next generation of pipers is a service to the piping community and is well within the terms of 'piping related'.


Actually no-one should be working unsupervised with children without a PVG cert.
Donít know if you have anything like that in the states.


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Old 09-17-2019, 03:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

Hearing about the events leading up to this thread has made me think about how bands and teachers deal with kids.

I teach in a youth PB. I am also a board member. As a board, we have discussed whether we should get instructors training mainly as it not only protects kids, but also the instructors themselves.

As a non-profit youth band that relies on volunteer instructors, can we really afford to do background checks on our volunteers? I suppose we should look into it. Personally in order to get my secondary K-12 teaching license, I was required to maintain fingerprinting and background checks and in order to keep my green card, renewals require FBI checks too.

It seems that there are two protections that background checks would provide: safety of the kids AND safety of the instructors. We tend to think of kids as the victims in these situations, but ficticious accusations have ruined the reputations of educators who work with children too.

As a university educator, I have to take training on identifying sexual abuse in students and co-workers, but thereís usually not much on ways to minimize the possibilities of false accusations. Personally, I feel that this is overlooked besides the advice of ďkeep the office door openĒ etc.

In my pipe band teaching, I tend to either have single kids with parents sitting in, or a gaggle of kids whose parents hang out in the hallway.

Sorry for the rambling, but opinions from other instructors would be interesting and useful.

Charlie
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:30 PM   #35
MacTallanambeann
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

UK myself Wulls, in the wilds of Argyll, and I know that no-one is supposed to be allowed to work with children unsupervised without a PVG but I presume that, in the case of Gordon Walker, he had a PVG certificate at the time these events came to pass so, perhaps it is wiser for schools etc. to avoid having one to one unsupervised tuition and, of course, while no-one is supposed to work with children without the required certificate that doesn't mean that, at some point, someone might not set themselves up, with the unknowing assistance of others to gain access to juveniles without the necessary safeguarding certificates. The point I was trying to make is that, no matter what official protections, certificates etc. are put in place there will always be ways that offenders can get around them and so the best form of defense is knowledge of the risk.

I suppose that one simple solution for teachers, although I don't know about expense, is to have a video recorder of some form in the tuition room so that every lesson is recorded to safeguard the student and the instructor.

Last edited by MacTallanambeann; 09-17-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:03 AM   #36
CalumII
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

As pointed out, Gord would without doubt have had a Disclosure Scotland certificate. It's a basic safeguard, but it isn't foolproof.


From my perspective as a (private) teacher I insist that there is always a parent present when teaching kids, even though I do have a current DBS certificate. I also do some schools teaching and in that environment such a policy is infeasible - private tuition already costs a bomb before adding some sort of chaperone.


As teachers all we can do is draw the line conservatively, and take children seriously when they try to tell us something (in the present case, it seems clear that the reputation stopped complaints being taken seriously).


In particular, there is, I think, practically never a reason to touch a student. We have words for that, and in the rare cases I do think it necessary, the blunt end of a pencil is usually enough - and seek consent in advance.
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:42 PM   #37
EagleJCS
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

Don't want to comment on the GW issue except I hope the youth involved have/are receiving counseling.

If anyone is interested, the Boy Scouts of America has for several years made their Youth Protection Training and guidelines available online for anyone. You do not have to be a registered member of the organization to take the training.

Here's the link to the lead-in page with more information:
https://www.scouting.org/training/youth-protection/
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:56 PM   #38
AndrewLam
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleJCS View Post
Don't want to comment on the GW issue except I hope the youth involved have/are receiving counseling.

If anyone is interested, the Boy Scouts of America has for several years made their Youth Protection Training and guidelines available online for anyone. You do not have to be a registered member of the organization to take the training.

Here's the link to the lead-in page with more information:
https://www.scouting.org/training/youth-protection/

Boy Scouts of America?

Not exactly a role model is it?

.....if what's in the media is true, it almost appears to have been competing against the catholic church for the award of 'greatest number of kiddie fiddlers in an organisation'.....
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:19 PM   #39
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

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Originally Posted by AndrewLam View Post
Boy Scouts of America?

Not exactly a role model is it?

.....if what's in the media is true, it almost appears to have been competing against the catholic church for the award of 'greatest number of kiddie fiddlers in an organisation'.....

I don't want to get into a debate on what happened within either organization in the past. I will say that that sort of behavior is reprehensible for anyone in a position of authority and trust over someone else - man or woman, child or adult.

Just about any organization you want to name will likely have a similar track record prior to raising awareness of the issue with their membership and instituting protection plans. Reported incidents for other organizations have not been made as widely public in recent memory.

Youth Protection training was not required (or even available, as far as I know) for volunteers in the Boy Scouts of America until the mid to late 1990's. Background checks for volunteers were not required until about the same time - in many cases it was left up to the chartering organization (church, school, VFW Post, Elks Lodge, Fire Department, etc.) if there was one desired.

The Youth Protection Program was developed with input from child development experts and law enforcement and is reviewed and updated periodically. It's only as good as those that follow it, though.


Full disclosure - I was a registered Scout leader prior to the requirement and have kept my registration and training up to date since it became required. Fortunately, I have not been put in a position of having to report any incidents or suspected incidents. The leaders in my unit are very careful about protecting our youth.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:42 AM   #40
zarb
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Default Re: Gordon Walker

I looked at the Vale of Atholl's website a few years ago, simply for curiosity's sake. As I was wandering about the site, I found this link
http://www.thevale.org/downloads/pol...tionpolicy.pdf to their child protection policy. It seems well written, useful and less typical of what is written for most bands or organizations. It is probably standard for the UK and adapted from similar policies written elsewhere, but it seems to me to be a good model if someone was going to write something similar for their organization. The world changes and in some ways for the better.
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