You play like a girl! - Page 6

CalumII · 06-01-2017, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheotherRuth

So many in piping and other "sports" make dumb comments about females etc and we ate supposed to "let it go" because they're only joking. Right? A joke is a joke...let it go.

Except, doing this...turning a blind eye to blatant sexism, racism and complete unacceptable behaviour puts -everyone- and especially little kids growing up in this environment at risk. It prevents people acknowledging when something is so over the line because it muddies where that line is.

Thank you for your post. You put (in the above quote) what I was trying to say perfectly - that there is behaviour that goes on in the piping world that is unacceptable and we don't see it because we all think we all know where that line is, but some of us don't.

For what it's worth, I know personally of several stories like yours. You're not the only one, as I'm sure you know (and I suspect your private messages will bear that out).

Rooklidge · 06-01-2017, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalumII

Thank you for your post. You put (in the above quote) what I was trying to say perfectly - that there is behaviour that goes on in the piping world that is unacceptable and we don't see it because we all think we all know where that line is, but some of us don't.

For what it's worth, I know personally of several stories like yours. You're not the only one, as I'm sure you know (and I suspect your private messages will bear that out).

Thank you both. There is still so much work left to do. Speaking of it makes it easier for the next generation.

SweetDrones · 06-02-2017, 10:15 AM

the first band I was in, I faced violence - verbal but also physical, including in public or in front of children, from my first lesson. I got kicked out for reporting it. they even made a big show out of kicking me out too. Losers...

Thing is, it stays with you. Several years later, I am still a very anxious player and will probably never enjoy bagpipe like I enjoy sax right now.

I have also seen other stuff, but yeah, like Callum says, there is a lot of unexcusable behaviour out there in the piping world, including in one Grade 1 or 2 band (I can't remember) I know of.

Pip01 · 06-21-2017, 08:10 AM

... And now... between SweetDrones and TheotherRuth... and
CalumII and Rooklidge... I would pray that there is some silent
and very deep-reaching self-reflection going on within many of us...

For it is we... who are here... who must help the world become a
better... and a safer place... for those who are also here... and
who shall come after...

... Stand up!! ... Step in!!... Speak!!... and uphold what is Right!!
... and equally condemn!!... what is so obviously... Wrong!!

"If you're not part of the solution... you are part of the problem."

Let us aid one another, and ourselves, to better Life, and Music.

NoisyPiper · 11-03-2017, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M Burke

And the winning Quarterback in the superbowl...oh I forget her name... Anybody????

Paul

Interesting that you pick an example of a sport which does not have a kids-to-professional pipeline for development of female players to suggest that a woman couldn't be the Quarterback on a winning Super Bowl team.

Paul M Burke · 11-08-2017, 07:08 AM

Intresting YOU think I put that much thought into it.

More like, because as most people on here are american I picked a sport that they would identify with.

I'm sure there is a sport where a woman is the best, and competes on an equal footing with men. Please enlighten me. Perhaps Tennis or Golf.

I don't really want to go any further down this rabbit hole. Anyone, man, woman or persons of fluid gender can do whatever they want. But to suggest that men and woman are the same is

Paul

piper Q · 11-26-2017, 05:50 AM

There are Sports where women are on equal competitive footing with men. I'll post the one I'm more familiar with and a link. Then you can research your own.

National Matches of the Civilian Marksmanship Program is just one such venue.
http://thecmp.org/competitions/cmp-national-matches/

Steve Law · 11-27-2017, 06:15 AM

I think there’s a real risk that different things are being discussed here.

The suggestion that gender X plays ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than gender Y because of the gender difference is, I think, absurd.
TheotherRuth takes a very good example of weightlifting – whether a weightlifter is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ is largely unrelated to the sheer amount of weight which can be lifted.
I believe the same is true for musicianship – ‘better’ or ‘worse’ is such a subjective term that it becomes meaningless.

I could see an argument which says a more powerfully built piper could blow stronger reeds and therefore produce a louder sound (which may be ‘better’ or ‘worse’, depending on the listener’s preferences) – note that I didn’t say which gender; just more powerful.

Equally, the suggestion that gender X plays differently than gender Y as an intrinsic part of the gender difference, does, I think hold some validity.

I think it’s fairly well accepted that feminine gender generally have a more caring personality, while masculine generally can be more aggressive/confrontational/decisive (but please let’s not get drawn into semantics over my poor choice of words) and of course there are huge numbers of exceptions, but we’re talking generally here....my point is that ‘different’ is absolutely NOT the same as ‘better’ or ‘worse’....and I think that’s what Paul M Burke is trying to say too.

I think the judge’s comment in the OP were at best unhelpful and misguided, not to mention sexist – perhaps he didn’t realise the effect they could have (not excusing it – he should have not said it, but again, understanding that he may have said it without thought to the consequences is different to excusing it, and the world is imperfect....let’s just try to make it better, while acknowledging that we’re starting a long way back behind the line for a million historical reasons).

The thought that anyone should be abused for any reason (including gender) is appalling, and many of the examples given above illustrate that it does go on, at levels of ‘deliberate’ for someone’s gratification and also at an ‘unconscious’ level, possibly just because it’s so deeply ingrained in many areas that many don’t perceive it as such.

It needs to be gone at all levels, I agree completely with Calum II and TheotherRuth in that regard. We should all make great efforts to stamp it out.....but at the same time, surely we can find a way to maintain the delights and joys which ARE gender differences – These days I’m often nervous of holding a door open for a lady as I’ve had too many sneered responses of “I’m not helpless; I CAN manage” even though I hold the same door for a young male – I call it common courtesy, not condescension. Sometimes the ‘equality pendulum’ has been pushed too far, imho, and it’s become a battleground where even complimentary and well-intentioned remarks can be spun around and used as weapons to fight against a completely imagined slur.

We have a couple of band members blessed with magnificent heads of hair; well below shoulder-blade length when loose, but which magically disappear into neat buns when in uniform.... am I wrong to compliment the wearer of the locks when I think they are beautiful? From which should I withhold my compliment, the guy or the gal? And if different, why? Their hair length and tidiness have zero effect of their playing and musicality, but they have different skill levels – is that because of gender? I think not.

Hopefully my rant above is just a wordier version of what Pip01 wrote - well said Sir :-)

Margaret · 11-29-2017, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M Burke

Intresting YOU think I put that much thought into it.

More like, because as most people on here are american I picked a sport that they would identify with.

I'm sure there is a sport where a woman is the best, and competes on an equal footing with men. Please enlighten me. Perhaps Tennis or Golf.

I don't really want to go any further down this rabbit hole. Anyone, man, woman or persons of fluid gender can do whatever they want. But to suggest that men and woman are the same is

Paul

Team Roping - check the results for either United States Team Roping Championships, many times women are at the top, not just the guys. https://www.ustrc.com/Home/. It's a skill sport, so they're on equal footing. And up until rodeos banned women from competing in the 1940's, they were regularly beating the boys in bulls, broncs and steer wrestling.

johnsog · 11-30-2017, 11:42 AM

If you'll excuse my adding to this sidebar, women are now competing in rodeo as well. Also, men and women compete equally in grand prix horse jumping.

06-02-2017, 10:15 AM	#53
SweetDrones Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: France Posts: 87	Re: You play like a girl! the first band I was in, I faced violence - verbal but also physical, including in public or in front of children, from my first lesson. I got kicked out for reporting it. they even made a big show out of kicking me out too. Losers... Thing is, it stays with you. Several years later, I am still a very anxious player and will probably never enjoy bagpipe like I enjoy sax right now. I have also seen other stuff, but yeah, like Callum says, there is a lot of unexcusable behaviour out there in the piping world, including in one Grade 1 or 2 band (I can't remember) I know of.

06-21-2017, 08:10 AM	#54
Pip01 Holy smoking keyboard! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North America Posts: 3,019	Re: You play like a girl! ... And now... between SweetDrones and TheotherRuth... and CalumII and Rooklidge... I would pray that there is some silent and very deep-reaching self-reflection going on within many of us... For it is we... who are here... who must help the world become a better... and a safer place... for those who are also here... and who shall come after... ... Stand up!! ... Step in!!... Speak!!... and uphold what is Right!! ... and equally condemn!!... what is so obviously... Wrong!! "If you're not part of the solution... you are part of the problem." Let us aid one another, and ourselves, to better Life, and Music. __________________ My friends all know, With what a brave carouse... Last edited by Pip01; 06-21-2017 at 08:23 AM.

11-08-2017, 07:08 AM	#56
Paul M Burke Holy smoking keyboard! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Waterford, Ireland. Posts: 1,214	Re: You play like a girl! Intresting YOU think I put that much thought into it. More like, because as most people on here are american I picked a sport that they would identify with. I'm sure there is a sport where a woman is the best, and competes on an equal footing with men. Please enlighten me. Perhaps Tennis or Golf. I don't really want to go any further down this rabbit hole. Anyone, man, woman or persons of fluid gender can do whatever they want. But to suggest that men and woman are the same is Paul __________________ Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

11-26-2017, 05:50 AM	#57
piper Q Forum Silver Medal Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Currently Mississippi, who knows where next Posts: 339	Re: You play like a girl! There are Sports where women are on equal competitive footing with men. I'll post the one I'm more familiar with and a link. Then you can research your own. National Matches of the Civilian Marksmanship Program is just one such venue. http://thecmp.org/competitions/cmp-national-matches/ __________________ Breaching the peace? What bagpipes officer?

11-27-2017, 06:15 AM	#58
Steve Law Forum Regular Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Norwich, UK Posts: 173	Re: You play like a girl! I think there’s a real risk that different things are being discussed here. The suggestion that gender X plays ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than gender Y because of the gender difference is, I think, absurd. TheotherRuth takes a very good example of weightlifting – whether a weightlifter is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ is largely unrelated to the sheer amount of weight which can be lifted. I believe the same is true for musicianship – ‘better’ or ‘worse’ is such a subjective term that it becomes meaningless. I could see an argument which says a more powerfully built piper could blow stronger reeds and therefore produce a louder sound (which may be ‘better’ or ‘worse’, depending on the listener’s preferences) – note that I didn’t say which gender; just more powerful. Equally, the suggestion that gender X plays differently than gender Y as an intrinsic part of the gender difference, does, I think hold some validity. I think it’s fairly well accepted that feminine gender generally have a more caring personality, while masculine generally can be more aggressive/confrontational/decisive (but please let’s not get drawn into semantics over my poor choice of words) and of course there are huge numbers of exceptions, but we’re talking generally here....my point is that ‘different’ is absolutely NOT the same as ‘better’ or ‘worse’....and I think that’s what Paul M Burke is trying to say too. I think the judge’s comment in the OP were at best unhelpful and misguided, not to mention sexist – perhaps he didn’t realise the effect they could have (not excusing it – he should have not said it, but again, understanding that he may have said it without thought to the consequences is different to excusing it, and the world is imperfect....let’s just try to make it better, while acknowledging that we’re starting a long way back behind the line for a million historical reasons). The thought that anyone should be abused for any reason (including gender) is appalling, and many of the examples given above illustrate that it does go on, at levels of ‘deliberate’ for someone’s gratification and also at an ‘unconscious’ level, possibly just because it’s so deeply ingrained in many areas that many don’t perceive it as such. It needs to be gone at all levels, I agree completely with Calum II and TheotherRuth in that regard. We should all make great efforts to stamp it out.....but at the same time, surely we can find a way to maintain the delights and joys which ARE gender differences – These days I’m often nervous of holding a door open for a lady as I’ve had too many sneered responses of “I’m not helpless; I CAN manage” even though I hold the same door for a young male – I call it common courtesy, not condescension. Sometimes the ‘equality pendulum’ has been pushed too far, imho, and it’s become a battleground where even complimentary and well-intentioned remarks can be spun around and used as weapons to fight against a completely imagined slur. We have a couple of band members blessed with magnificent heads of hair; well below shoulder-blade length when loose, but which magically disappear into neat buns when in uniform.... am I wrong to compliment the wearer of the locks when I think they are beautiful? From which should I withhold my compliment, the guy or the gal? And if different, why? Their hair length and tidiness have zero effect of their playing and musicality, but they have different skill levels – is that because of gender? I think not. Hopefully my rant above is just a wordier version of what Pip01 wrote - well said Sir :-) Last edited by Steve Law; 11-27-2017 at 06:19 AM.

11-30-2017, 11:42 AM	#60
johnsog Forum Regular Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 238	Re: You play like a girl! If you'll excuse my adding to this sidebar, women are now competing in rodeo as well. Also, men and women compete equally in grand prix horse jumping.