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Beer Tent The general discussion forum, and the place to start a new "beer-tent-like" Piping Related discussion...

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Old 07-23-2019, 10:24 AM   #11
el gaitero
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

I didn’t see here does anyone have trouble pronouncing pee-broch. Or pibroch
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:27 AM   #12
MacTallanambeann
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

I don't follow.

Is it against the rules on this forum for a thread to broaden in an educational manner if users want to explore something that the thread brings up?

As for 'Pibroch', that's a pretty nasty anglicisation of a beautiful Gaelic word with none of it's elegance.
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:28 AM   #13
CalumII
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTallanambeann View Post
It would take quite a bit of work to explain how to approximate the words

I'm quite confident pronouncing them - what I was trying to tease out was the difference between the -eachd ending in pìobaireachd and its use elsewhere, because I'm not aware that there is one, air fhios dhomh.
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Old 07-24-2019, 05:46 PM   #14
MacTallanambeann
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

I agree with that, the eachd always seems pretty much the same. Chan eil diofair sam bith an sin idir nam bheachd.

Last edited by MacTallanambeann; 07-24-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

Chan eil Gàidhlig on ghlùn agam, ach...

The good people at www.faclair.com list the following pronunciation:

pìobaireachd: /piːbɛrjəxg/--the /j/ should be in tiny superscript, but I can't get it to appear here.

The other caveat is that for most Gaelic speakers, I'd say the intervocalic /b/ and word-final /g/ sounds are somewhat devoiced. Not _quite_ like a /p/ and a /k/ in English as they're not aspirated, but somewhere in between. (A similar issue pops up in Korean, hence confusing signs for "Pusan" here and "Busan" there.)

If you can read IPA (that's international phonetic alphabet, not the really hoppy beer), then you're all set.

If not, a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. The stress is on the first syllable.
2. The Gaelic word has three syllables as opposed to the English two.
3. Yes, when you see -chd in Scottish Gaelic (but NOT -cht in Irish), you can think of that word-final d as a "k", but don't forget the full-throated "ch" (as in "loch", Bach, etc.) that comes before it. That could be why the English predilection for saying "pee-brock" grates on Gaelic speakers' ears.

Or you could really confuse people and go with the Bretonized "pibroc'h" (although the actual Breton word for pìobaireachd is "biniaourezh").

Last edited by Graineag; 07-24-2019 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 07-25-2019, 02:40 AM   #16
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

Is the final "k" sound produced by a glottal stop?
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Old 07-27-2019, 09:20 AM   #17
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

/piːbɛrjəxg/

Seems non-intuitive (or at least extra work) to have a devoiced fricative followed by a voiced stop, with no epenthetic vowel between.

For sure devoicing that g produces the k of "pibrock".
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Old 07-27-2019, 12:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

Yes, I was somewhat surprised by the transcription too. It's not how I would have transcribed it in IPA myself, and I'd be curious to hear the transcriber's rationale though I doubt (s)he would remember. FWIW Faclair.com is run by a dedicated team of native and native-level fluent speakers, so I trust their judgment.

The only explanation I can think of is that native English speakers tend to naturally aspirate consonants like /p/ and /k/ in ways that a native Gaelic speaker wouldn't. We also have a nasty tendency to change the velar fricative /x/ to a velar stop /k/, which is probably part of what prompted MacTallanambeann's comments in the first place.

Interestingly, as Gaelic learning has grown in the Central Belt outwith its traditional heartlands, I've heard from a native speaker that some kids in Gaelic-medium schools in Glasgow have also been habitually making the /x/ to /k/ shift and that this could mark the beginning of a new "Glasgow Gaelic" dialect. (At this point, it's too early to tell.)

So who knows? Maybe in 100 years, even Gaelic speakers will all say "pee-brock" anyway--but if you're trying to pronounce the Gaelic word accurately at this point, I wouldn't.
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Old 07-27-2019, 05:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

Sadly I think that the Gaelic is not the only part of Scottish language that is suffering. I recall talking to a chap involved in trying to spread the Gaelic to the young around ten years ago and he was telling me that youngsters in the schools he was going into didn't even know what local place names meant anymore like burn- or brae and couldn't even pronounce that legendary Scottish 'ch' in Loch. They very often say 'lock' nowadays. Even traditional Scottish dialect is dying out.

A lot of it is blamed on standardised English based education and, dare I say it, those fellows south of the border but the sad reality is that the Gaelic and all the local dialects not just here but throughout the world were/are inevitably going to suffer with national and global communication. Of course service in two world wars also meant that a lot of Gaelic speakers (and there were still many in Scotland who only spoke Gaelic including a number of my own family) had to learn English and, once they had it, it wasn't really possible or wise to cast it off.

Anyway I shall say no more on the subject as I guess it really isn't 'piping related'.
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Old 07-27-2019, 06:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Piobaireachd

But if ye can say "It's a Braw bricht moonlicht nicht", it's all richt if ye can.
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