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Soda Shoppe For young pipers, drummers, and others not quite old enough for the beer tent.

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Old 12-01-2015, 04:30 AM   #31
John McCain
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipernz View Post
Agree cane van vary quite a bit from reed to reed. Maybe a comparison between 10 sets of cane. Then there's also the variability of the reed set up itself to mould the characteristics you want.

I like set one. Interesting how they sound so different by comparison to your other Rocket sets. But yeah understand they might be spec'd differently.

Edit: I'd be interested to hear the other recording.
I take back what I said. It's reed set #5 in the 9Reed file that seems to be closer to cane.

Here is a file with repeating 2 second samples. First is cane, Second is reed set #1 (carbon Rocket bass with glass tongues, Third is reed set #5 (older glass tongue Rockets). This group of three reed sets then repeats 3 times:

https://soundcloud.com/pipermccain/c...ockets-rockets

There is nothing particularly scientific about this. Cane and Synth Reed recordings were made at separate times.

And again, I didn't make these recordings to prove a point or a theory. They were made for me to check my perception (as much as a recording can) and to have something archival.
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Old 12-01-2015, 05:16 AM   #32
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

This is interesting in that #1 set in the 9 reed recording sounds different than #1 set in the 3 reed recording. A lot more buzzy in the second recording. Whereas to my ear #1 on the first recording sounds only a little brighter than #5. A bit like a new set of cane versus a blown in set of cane. In your second recording #5 is certainly closer. Could be a different perception again in 'real life'.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 12-01-2015, 05:24 AM   #33
John McCain
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

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Originally Posted by pipernz View Post
This is interesting in that #1 set in the 9 reed recording sounds different than #1 set in the 3 reed recording. A lot more buzzy in the second recording. Whereas to my ear #1 on the first recording sounds only a little brighter than #5. A bit like a new set of cane versus a blown in set of cane. In your second recording #5 is certainly closer. Could be a different perception again in 'real life'.
I also noticed that. I guess it's from listening to the reed set in different contexts. I went back to the wav files to pick up the samples before converting the whole file to mp3 for soundcloud.
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:36 PM   #34
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

Hi guys
Alright, so I just finished my paper which took a very, very long time, and rewarded myself by listening to the drone file. Of course, I sent the link to Deborah as well so she could judge for herself what the drones sounded like. To me, this is the sound that I would characterize as tenor dominant, and let me explain it using something which I never came up with, but Deborah originally described it this way. Obviously the drones are not human voices but we can use the "Oo" vowel to designate a mellow sound and the "Ah" sound to mean full of harmonics and quite bold this was her idea. In all of the recordings the bass seems to always hover on the Oo sound and the tenors always make the Ah sound, which is what I did not expect. I expected the bass to sound the Ah at a forte dynamic and the tenors to just Oo in the background at a mezzo-piano level, because this is the sound on the Kron Heritage recording as well as the recording of D.A.Smith in 1917, the sound which I like. John, I'm not saying I didn't like the drone sound, I just expected something different. I was sort-of saying to myself, "If these are Hendersons, they are not bass dominant to my ear, they must be either Dunbar, MacLellan, something different". The only types of pipes I know of that have the bass project with the Ah vowel and the tenors on the Oo vowel are only the Kron Heritage pipes, as well as the latest R.G.Hardie pipes as uploaded by Tartontown (Not to mention the Smith recording). Other pipes which are Henderson based, like Dunbar, MacLellan, MacMurchie etc, all sound to me like the tenors take over with the big Ah sound and the bass, while quite present, leans towards the Oo sound, even with several reeds used. The difference in the two sounds come only from when the three drones are playing together. Separately you won't hear a difference (I.e. You'll always hear the Ah vowel regardless), but together, if you listen closely, it's likely that either the bass itself or the tenors themselves project, or, sometimes together producing the Ah, as heard in the video "RGHP01 Acetal bagpipes", which, too, is a sound I personally favor. Ok I didn't mean to sound too nerdy if I seemed that way, but I was trying to explain myself as best as I could with the help of an idea straight from Deborah. I probably would have said the bass would be mellow and the tenors bold, but different people have a different perspective, so I was trying to simplify it. Then again, the reason for the bass being mellow could be that the bore in the bottom is 19/64 rather than 11/32 which might account for the great difference. Maybe it wasn't until recently that Hendersons and Hardies changed their drone tone for the better, maybe you have a Henderson that was made not so recently, just guessing here.
Michael
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:51 PM   #35
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

Excuse me, the second link to the Soundcloud won't play for some reason. Maybe you can probably put the MP3 file on Dropbox or something? Or I'll try it sometime later and let you know if it works.
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Old 12-05-2015, 05:13 PM   #36
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

Hi there. So you won't believe my discovery here. I was using audio software called Studio Recorder from the American Printing House for the Blind (Aph), which has several unique features. I'm a bit afraid to digress into this but it does have to do with changing drone dominance. A way to navigate audio is by "pixels", or groups of 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 or 512 audio samples. It depends on the sample rate used, because at the standard 44100 Hz, each pixer, depending on the zoom setting, will navigate you by either (in approximations) 1/86 of a second, 1/172, 1/345, 1/690, or 1/1375 or thereabouts. I'm unable to do calculations at the moment so the values are far from true but you got the idea. So my idea was to navigate by 1/120 & 1/240 of seconds, the bass and tenor drone freqs respectively. Therefore the sample rate is set to 61440 in order for the pixels to be that length. Also the pitch of the pipes, which you can change with Sr as well, must be at exactly 480. Anyway, done with the tech stuff. I opened one of the Kron Heritage files, changed the pitch 16 cents higher so the Low A equals 480 exactly, resampled to 61440 in order to navigate by 1/120 & 1/240, deleted only 1/240 of a second and mixed it with the original (so the bass harmonics cancel out and you only can hear the tenors). I copied the tenor-only result to the clipboard, revert back to when the bass could be heard and mixed the two. Therefore the tenors increased 6 decibels in volume. Note that you should set both clipboard and destination mix volumes to -6 to avoid the audio enemy, i.e distortion or "clipping". I never thought the blend would be just excellent. I was under the impression that the tenors would overpower the bass, but truthfully not, it's a really nice blend between the two. So now I feel like I've been looking for too much bass dominance in the past! These Hardie pipes seem to have this type of excellent blend, but then again they can be set up to sound as bass-dom as the original Kron Heritage recording. Not sure if there is a way for any you guys to do this easier, but it just involves mixing two identical piping files at exactly the tenor drone frequency, copying the tenor-only result, and mixing it with the original to make the pipes slightly more tenor-dom. Note you have to be exact with the frequencies or else this won't work. You don't need a delay effect, just mix it once. Then again you can invert-mix instead of regular mixing, and you would do otherwise the same steps to make pipes more bass-dom too. Well hopefully I didn't sound too off topic but I just thought I'd tell you that I was under the misaprehention that "blended" means a lot of bass. Then again I have Naill pipes which are slightly tenor-dom, so this may be part of the reason why I like bass-dominant.
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Old 12-05-2015, 06:12 PM   #37
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

Without getting into ratios, pixels, hz, just relying on what our old friend Pythagoras worked out...

I suspect sampling each drone in turn wouldn't really give you a sense of tenor dominant vs bass-dominant as closely as all drones working at once reinforcing ( Or not reinforcing) harmonics through difference tones:

When one tenor and the bass are in tune, the difference in their pitch is equal to an octave. We hear this difference between the pitches ( difference frequency) as an audible pitch, called a difference tone.

As the difference tone in this case is equal to the fundamental of the bass drone (A), an in-tune tenor-bass connection produces a second ( though weaker) bass A. Similarly, all the other harmonics between the tenor and bass, if in tune would have difference tones of one octave, reinforcing the harmonics of the bass drone in the same manner.

Add a second tenor drone, perfectly in tune and again the difference tones between the tenor and bass would equal the fundamental and harmonics of the bass drone, further reinforcing it.

That's the acoustic theory of it, at least.

Considering how the tenors reinforce each other, however, gives us the other part of the phenomenon: If the tenors are perfectly in tune with each other ( perhaps a rash assumption), then the pitch is increased in volume as the waves sync up. That increased amplitude, however should somewhat increase the volume in the tenor/bass difference tone as well.
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Old 12-05-2015, 06:28 PM   #38
Michael Kazmierski Dunn
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

You might want to take a look at this file to demonstrate my point. I uploaded it to Dropbox, although if the link is dead, maybe you can PM me with your Email address.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2cohphzx2...r-dom.mp3?dl=0
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:40 PM   #39
Michael Kazmierski Dunn
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

Well, I've never posted in forever about this topic.
I'm selling my Naills so I can get my hands on one of these Hardie pipes. According to Alastair Dunn, the bottom bore in the bass is 8.0 MM. Just over 5/16, not 19/64. To me, this seems to be the reason why the bass is so much louder these days...
Oh, BTW my external hard drive just crashed and I lost all my music worth 1000 gigabytes! UGH! I think it's just a problem with the cable haha... But this music does include recordings of the Hardie pipes, old bagpipe records, and much more. I'm pretty sure it can be fixed.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: Tenor-dominant Hendersons?

John, I didn't see it mentioned. Are you playing Naills in your sound samples?
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