Welcome to
the forums at bobdunsire.com
bobdunsire.com forums bobdunsire.com forums
You can reset your password by going here. Be sure to try your current email and any email addresses you may have had in the past.
Otherwise please use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the forums. In order to help you, please provide the following info: Your Display Name from the old forum and any possible email addresses you would have used before. Without that info we cannot locate your account.


Go Back   Bob Dunsire Bagpipe Forums > General Discussion > Music
Register Blogs FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Music Discuss specific tunes, the writing of tunes, other questions, concerns, etc. related specifically to the music or music books.

Platinum Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-25-2016, 07:37 PM   #11
redmond
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to redmond
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom MacKenzie View Post
Um, well, now that that problem is recognized, we could work on solving it by allowing the drummers to always start the score by omitting the first flam, just the one after the attack E only, and playing the first 7 to end on the left foot and a heavy bass drum beat, and then continue the play the score as written.

I would certainly make our lives easier, since then we don't have to memorize which tunes are right footed tunes.



tomm
Well done Tom,
Yes, this is how it should be re the bar lines. Perhaps the flams on the third beat each time should just be a tap and then add a strong accent on the left hand on the first beat of the bar each time coming off the roll across the bar line, and then perhaps a weaker accent on the second beat. The first flam that you have deleted could remain as a light tap as there is a melody note played on the pipes to correspond (In Green Hills and most others).
In shifting the bar lines we also need to alter the emphasis which I think can be achieved by doing as as I have suggested.

I considering the feet, if we have to? The first beat of the first bar is on the right foot.


Are you happy with that concept? I welcome your thoughts.
redmond is offline   Reply With Quote
Gold Sponsor
Old 05-26-2016, 08:43 AM   #12
CalumII
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: London Town
Posts: 4,643
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatherbelle View Post
And are you saying that a drummer given a 3/4 score can roll that out starting either on beat 3 or beat 1? But musically the score wouldn't (shouldn't) work, as you can't just willy nilly decide to put strong drum accents on weak pipe beats surely?
The point is that if required, the drum score is pushed back a beat in order to sync up correctly with the pipe tune.

I think the vast majority of pipers are completely unaware this happens, and, I think, a substantial proportion of drummers too, at least in my experience.
CalumII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 03:03 PM   #13
Robin73
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Devon
Posts: 40
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatherbelle View Post

In this day and age why do feet have anything to do with how to play a tune? Is that relevant any more?

Changing where the 1 is, changes the tune very much.

Imagine singing

1) 'happy BIRTH day to YOU - happy BIRTH day to YOU
happy BIRTH day dear TOm happy BIRTH day to YOU.

that's what we all do right? Now change where the 1 is and try singing this

2) HAPPY birth day TO you - HAPPY birth day TO you -
HAPPY birth day DEAR tom - HAPPY birth day TO you -

It's very different and rather unnatural. Everybody knows we want the big main stress to be on the person's name.

The strong beats in the second example are in a different place and that changes the flow of the melody, turning it from a naturally flowing lilting sort of affair, to an awkward, stilted clumsy effort.

And I can bet my bottom dollar that many people singing the second example above will think they're singing the second version but will actually be singing the first one!!

The two tunes you mention are both 3/4 tunes and both start with an upbeat so the first main stressed beat should be the third note of the tune, with the first two as upbeat.

As to 'that is the way it has always been done' is that really true? And even if true, and that is later found to be erroneous, what kind of attitude says 'och well, we've always done it wrong so we'll carry on doing it wrong thank you very much, and more than that we'll confuse a whole new generation of young musicians by teaching it wrong.'
Heatherbelle, yours is a voice of reason in a world gone mad!!!

Seriously, this issue is something of a national disgrace. The Bulgarians have complex compound time signatures like 11/8 and 15/8, Africans have poly-rhythm, Latin Americans have many subtly nuanced rhythms, but in Great Britain, if we stray from the path of 2 or 4 beats to the bar, we can't get it right!!!

It's not about ego - it's just wrong and needs fixing. Otherwise we are passing on musical illiteracy within one of the few decent traditions we have. Not cool!

This is a battle worth fighting, but I have no standing or authority within the piping community, as a new player (of the GHB - I play the border pipes already). Someone with some authority needs to make a fuss through whatever channels necessary (magazines? academies? competition judge associations? I don't know the scene very well).

Anyone on here fancy taking on the challenge?
Robin73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 04:17 PM   #14
el gaitero
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Estados Unidos
Posts: 4,916
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin73 View Post
.

Anyone on here fancy taking on the challenge?
I wonder how it's taught to make sense at Inchdrewer House? Certainly a foremost and respected authority.

Maybe someone here with that experience will share ...... Roger?...
el gaitero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 06:36 PM   #15
3D Piper
Forum Clasp
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 953
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

We are dealing with this now. We are sitting in with another band that will compete at Stone Mountain (we don't have the numbers right now). They play a retreat, and I noticed it was written with the pick-up-notes as beat one (as most of the old retreats are). Drum scores were written to that version of the retreat. Once we started working together, the midsection specifically said "I can't really feel the pulse of this retreat". The drum scores were written to accent that first beat, which should have been the pick-up/third beat. It is SO clear that the emphasis should be on the first quarter note, just like in Green Hills.
I mentioned it to the others, and was basically told the way it is written is the way we will play it. While we have all gotten used to it, I can't help but feel like we're playing it wrong. I hope the judges don't notice!
Luckily we aren't marching, as I've heard the long discussions of 'which foot should you start on'....

Edit: I should mention, all of the retreats on Jim McGillivray's pipetunes site are arranged CORRECTLY!


-Matthew
3D Piper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 02:32 AM   #16
Robin73
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Devon
Posts: 40
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

I term of addressing this issue, I think that publishers and suppliers of tune books have a responsibility.

Matthew mentions Jim McGillivray's pipetunes site as a reliable source of 3/4 sanity.

Can anyone provide titles of publications which either do or don't notate the tunes correctly?

I/we/someone who will be listened to could then contact tune book sellers and see if they have enough interest in musical integrity to change their stocking habits... (that would be a big ask, I realise, but maybe this actually matters enough).

And maybe I/we/someone who will be listened to could contact owners of websites that have it wrong. This site has it right for Amazing Grace, but wrong for The Green Hills and others.

The thing is, I'm maybe not the best person to do this. I think I'm slightly autistic and I can tend to put people's back up when I challenge them.

What doesn't come across is that I think the people who put these resources together did an amazing job for a cause which I really value. I appreciate their efforts, and yet and yet am very troubled by the technical inaccuracies which have consequences they might not be aware of - in this case the spoiling of some great tunes and the perpetuation of an error in understanding through the tradition into the future.
Robin73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 05:03 AM   #17
Robin73
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Devon
Posts: 40
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

It looks like all the technical groundwork has been done in this excellent article. Maybe if anyone reading this who wants to help get this issue sorted shares it with a few people who they think will be open to it, along with a request to do the same, we can make a difference.
Robin73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 07:56 AM   #18
3D Piper
Forum Clasp
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 953
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Robin73,
That is a great article!

I think there are several issues going on here. With pipers, many are/were not trained musicians. Some may not even read music at all and they DO rely on 'which foot does this start?'. Others have a strong sense of 'tradition'- it was written this way and that's the way we'll play it. Green Hills is still written this way on EUSPBA website's mass bands tunes page.
When played correctly, you should strike in to an E, then quickly play the pick up notes on the right foot, then the first quarter note on the left foot (beat 1 of bar 1). Since it is a 3/4, you will alternate which foot lands on beat one of each bar- left for bar one, right for bar 2, left for bar 3, etc.

I think drummers go by the written score, so if the retreat is written as everything starting on beat 1 that's how they write their score. Like the pipers music, the massed bands 3/4 drum score is still written as starting on beat 1 on the EUSPBA website.

It is crazy that in 2017 this is still an issue..

-Matthew
3D Piper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 12:28 PM   #19
Heatherbelle
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts: 3,696
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3D Piper View Post
Robin73,

It is crazy that in 2017 this is still an issue..

-Matthew
Isn't it just?! I like the article mentioned above. I disagree with holding the final note of the tune for three beats - but hey, hold it for as many beats as you like---JUST GET THE BARLINES MOVED !! Robert Wallace's Tutor books have the correct scoring. Jim McGillivray's pipetunes.ca retreats etc are correct too. The same issue applies to the 9/8 upbeats too. What an old thread this is, and still the mistake continues. Maybe the organisations and teaching establishments don't care enough to make the changes. Maybe everyone is too busy. Maybe people don't like change. But it would be so nice if everyone strove for musical excellence as well as piping and drumming excellence. Good for the few bands and individuals across the world who ARE making the change.
Heatherbelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 01:50 PM   #20
el gaitero
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Estados Unidos
Posts: 4,916
Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

I wonder how non piper Army squaddies march to a 3/4 ...or if they know or care. But I'll bet they always start on the left and end on the right regardless.
el gaitero is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Silver Sponsor

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:33 AM.