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Music Discuss specific tunes, the writing of tunes, other questions, concerns, etc. related specifically to the music or music books.

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Old 08-31-2017, 02:13 PM   #21
David
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3D Piper View Post
Robin73,
That is a great article!

I think there are several issues going on here. With pipers, many are/were not trained musicians.
-Matthew
So they became pipers without becoming musicians? Trained or untrained is another matter. Important, but not the ultimate arbiter of musician. Lots of folk musicians have a keenly developed sense of beat and rhythm.

A few old books show the pick-up bar. No question how GS McLennan wrote out Kilworth Hills!
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Old 08-31-2017, 04:08 PM   #22
3D Piper
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

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Originally Posted by David View Post
So they became pipers without becoming musicians?

Sorry, I guess I should have said "already know how to read and understand music and a little music theory".

But to your point- YES, I believe some pipers are not 'musicians'. They learn to play with as little feeling as the computer that plays it for them. I have always told my students "I can teach a monkey to play a tune on the bagpipes, but I want to teach you the music behind it".. Danged if I wasn't justified when I saw a chicken playing "America" on AGT haha.

-Matthew
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:29 AM   #23
Robin73
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Looks like EUSPBA could be part of the solution then. Maybe a few polite emails round about the same time could nudge this issue up the agenda?
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Old 09-01-2017, 01:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

I sent in my email!


-Matthew
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:08 AM   #25
3D Piper
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

My email got a friendly reply saying the scores are written correctly, meaning they are written to match the incorrectly written pipers music.

A quick scan of youtube shows the result:

https://youtu.be/LbCs0Wt4LQg

https://youtu.be/XvN-qr-WYmw

https://youtu.be/cktz91ymTVE

Oh well

I guess we'll bring this back up in 2027

-Matthew

Last edited by 3D Piper; 09-02-2017 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Thank goodness for Andy Stewart and the Royal Scots Dragoons! Here is a video of them playing it correctly:

https://youtu.be/SCSB_BiNSZo

The pipes come in at 2:00..

This page tells the origin of Green Hills:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140512...llsofTyrol.htm

So, if you listen to "La tua danza si leggiera" from the William Tell by Rossini, you can clearly hear that tune correctly puts the melody starting on the upbeat:

https://youtu.be/nzIqfny6HhA?t=1m44s

Oh well, I will just have to let it go.. As the justifying lyric in the Weird Al song "Weasel Stomping Day" says: "It's tradition, that makes it OK"

-Matthew
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Old 09-03-2017, 03:28 AM   #27
Robin73
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

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Originally Posted by 3D Piper View Post
My email got a friendly reply saying the scores are written correctly, meaning they are written to match the incorrectly written pipers music. -Matthew
Wow, I'm really pleased that you took up my suggestion. I will now send an email myself. Maybe if a few people say the same thing they will be more likely to give it some attention.

I'll send a link to the article I posted.

I'll also send two links from a previous post that I think make the difference clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Us6gnbxmWQ (wrong emphasis)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3fQD-RM-Fo (bass drum in right place)
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:04 AM   #28
Robin73
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

No Idea how I come across, but I sent this to several people on the EUSPBA contact page:

Dear pipe music aficionados,

Due to various historic factors, there is a widespread issue within the piping community relating to the synchronization of the pipe and drum parts in 3/4 tunes such as "The Green Hills of Tyrol," "When the Battle's O'er", "Amazing Grace" etc.

As a result, many pipe bands are placing the rhythmic emphasis on the wrong beat in 3/4 tunes, which spoils the natural flow of the tunes and makes them sound stilted and unnatural.

There are many bands who are aware of the issue and who play the tunes correctly, and many others who aren't and don't.

It can be hard to acknowledge that we in error, especially if there are several decades of tradition to support our position. However, this matter is not a subjective one - musicians from many other traditions, including Western Classical Music would recognize the problem and understand what had happened and how to fix it.

The crux of the matter is that the tunes are written with the barlines in the wrong place in publications and websites all over the world , and the error has become so widespread that it is now often considered correct simply by virtue of constant exposure.

I implore you to look into the matter. Here are some links to resources which I believe make it clear:

http://pipingwithapurpose.blogspot.c...ree-fours.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Us6gnbxmWQ (wrong emphasis)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3fQD-RM-Fo (bass drum in right place)

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/...d.php?t=162113

Please keep an open mind and consider the possibility that in this matter you may be mistaken. The remedy is very simple, and the potential benefits in terms of restoring these beautiful tunes to their original glory well worth the effort in my opinion.

Kind regards,

Robin Andrews.

Last edited by Robin73; 09-03-2017 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:18 AM   #29
David
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

How do most GrI and GrII bands handle the 3/4 score?
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:26 AM   #30
David
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Default Re: 3/4 issue revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3D Piper View Post
Sorry, I guess I should have said "already know how to read and understand music and a little music theory".

But to your point- YES, I believe some pipers are not 'musicians'. They learn to play with as little feeling as the computer that plays it for them. I have always told my students "I can teach a monkey to play a tune on the bagpipes, but I want to teach you the music behind it".. Danged if I wasn't justified when I saw a chicken playing "America" on AGT haha.

-Matthew
I don't know what AGT is . . . haven't had a TV in 35 years and I live in Asia.

Yes I see your point. Purveyors of lifeless music may well have rudimentary inflation skills, and the ability to approximate fingering to the Big notes.

Was the chicken recruited into a street band--or from a street band?
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