Welcome to
the forums at bobdunsire.com
bobdunsire.com forums bobdunsire.com forums
You can reset your password by going here. Be sure to try your current email and any email addresses you may have had in the past.
Otherwise please use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the forums. In order to help you, please provide the following info: Your Display Name from the old forum and any possible email addresses you would have used before. Without that info we cannot locate your account.


Go Back   Bob Dunsire Bagpipe Forums > General Discussion > Beer Tent
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Beer Tent The general discussion forum, and the place to start a new "beer-tent-like" Piping Related discussion...

Platinum Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-19-2020, 11:45 AM   #31
el gaitero
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Estados Unidos
Posts: 7,002
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by pancelticpiper View Post

He played it exactly the way it is in the book."
I recall a friend..a SGRPM....telling me that’s how he ( ‘they’ ..the piping adjudicators) judge a Gr 1 MSR at the World’s and other lead up contests.
Pure and simple...by the book. Full stop.
el gaitero is offline   Reply With Quote
Gold Sponsor
Old 08-19-2020, 12:51 PM   #32
Andrew Lenz
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Posts: 10,676
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

I just want to point out that we had two gold medallists chime in on this thread who also judge at the highest levels in piping. Thanks to Jim and Colin!

(And I'm not taking cannon fodder gold medals like mine!)

Andrew
__________________
Andrew T. Lenz, Jr.
BagpipeJourney.com - Reference for Bagpipers

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." ---Mark Twain
Andrew Lenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 03:18 PM   #33
John Dally
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Vashon
Posts: 2,420
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McGillivray View Post
I have to say that the above two statements -- if I'm reading them right -- are quite foreign to me and, I would suggest, to many or most of my colleagues.

For what it's worth, most competitions have done away with points on scoresheets, looking for placings only.


Cheers,
Jim
Sorry, Jim and Colin, if I gave offense. I should have taken care to emphasize that the vast majority of judges do the best job they can.
The OP was frustrated with their experience and, based on my own experience back in the Pleistocene, my intent was to offer a few things to help get some perspective. I remember feeling like I was appearing before St. Peter at the pearly gates. The statements, which I probably should have kept to myself, are things I've told myself when I've had a bad experience with either a judge who wasn't well equipped for the job, or the organizer's buddy, or hung over. I'm talking about things like the judge who tuned up his son's chanter reed while his son was warming up on the boards, and then proceed to judge the competition that I also was playing in. I don't think things like that happen any more, and probably never did in Canada or Scotland. To counter that, I remember playing for someone who sought me out afterward to have a very helpful and inspiring conversation.
__________________
Cha de\an a' phluic a'phiobaireachd
John Dally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2020, 10:08 AM   #34
colinmaclellan
Forum Gold Medal
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 662
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dally View Post
Sorry, Jim and Colin, if I gave offense.

You didn't John, not at all.



And your recounting of bad experiences is relevant; we are not yet out of the woods yet as regards people who care not a jot about practices such as you have described or even judging their pupils whom they have taught to play the material about to be performed - how people think this is ok is and always has been utterly unfathomable to me and many others.
__________________
http://www.pipereeds.com
colinmaclellan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2020, 03:15 PM   #35
EquusRacer
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 4,019
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

There certainly is an ethical question, perhaps issue, in the recent statements and examples on 'favoritism'.

In my field, a psychologist or therapist who does a psychological or other evaluation is ethically barred from treating that client. But some ignore that rule, though they risk facing a licensing board or, worse, damaging the client.

I can understand how a judge may not be able to avoid judging a student (or even an offspring) in a competition. It may be just a function of the limits involved. But tuning, or otherwise helping a competitor they're going to judge, is ethically questionable, at best.
EquusRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2020, 06:28 PM   #36
Pppiper
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 1,056
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by EquusRacer View Post
Related to your point of lack of grasping some concepts, I become frustrated when I'm faced with their apathy, and thus total lack of interest, which also communicates no interest in improving.
Yeah .. I feel this sometimes can be the bad side of competitiveness. People don't get the placings they want, and they get all upset or vindictive in some inane manner. Judge doesn't like me, that judge is too old and is out of touch with things, so and so shouldn't be in this grade and is sandbagging ... etc etc.

Such bitterness/apathy ... the more it's around, it can really spread. Granted though, I think I'm a bit more sensitive to it than most others.

A few years ago, I was strictly a non-competing piper. In time (as I decided I'd like to teach more in the future) I determined that at least having gone through competing for a while would inevitably be something that would enhance my ability to be a good resource. Regardless of whether I liked competing or not, at least I'd be able to draw conclusions and offer advice based on my experiences.

Fortunately, I must say that competition has been far more engaging and enjoyable than I'd ever have expected ... it's still not quite my cup of tea, as in general I find that I'm just really not a very competitive person. If I pull a win and later see a dismayed look on the face of a fellow competitor who was in my group, any excitement I might have been feeling about my accomplishment is nearly evaporated. I would love for there not to be placings, but lets face it .. no one would bother to do it if they can't "win" something.

So I get it .. but that doesn't mean that I like it. So naturally, the whole concept of competitiveness in piping kind of sets me on edge. And although it's generally a better scene by far than I'd feared ... occasionally there's talk/attitudes I'll encounter which make me see red. It's all I can do to avoid launching into some didactic rant about the importance of sportsmanship, and not living/defining one's life by their competition placings/grades.

Anyway .. bringing this back to the main topic here, the more people in general can learn to handle constructive criticism, the better. You shouldn't have to sugar coat things when someone asks you for your take on their playing, but of course ... by no means should you tear them a new one on every little thing that's "wrong." And on the receiving end at events, so often I find that people really need to remember that it's not all about them when they compete. You're in there with a dozen other people all working hard, just like you. Someone's going to be first. Someone's going to be "last."

If you thought you should have done better? Work more. See what happens. And if you did great last time .. there's no guarantee the same will occur next time. Different judges. Different competitors. Or ... maybe some of the folks from last time really stepped up and worked really hard to get a better go.

So again, it all comes down to learning how to embrace what you're given. When judges take the time to write notes about what to improve, frankly you should be thanking them up and down for going out of their way to offer their perspective. And if you think the comments are a little "harsh?" I gotta tell yah .. so often, I've found that if you put them down, relax a bit go back to reread later with a cooler head, you'll possibly find the judge was just trying to be emphatic ... or direct and to the point.

I applaud this effort by Calum .. and I look forward to seeing how the group progresses.

Cheers all,
~Nate

Last edited by Pppiper; 08-20-2020 at 06:32 PM. Reason: moronic spelling
Pppiper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 01:05 AM   #37
Jim Fogelman
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,070
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pppiper View Post
Fortunately, I must say that competition has been far more engaging and enjoyable than I'd ever have expected ... it's still not quite my cup of tea, as in general I find that I'm just really not a very competitive person. If I pull a win and later see a dismayed look on the face of a fellow competitor who was in my group, any excitement I might have been feeling about my accomplishment is nearly evaporated. I would love for there not to be placings, but lets face it .. no one would bother to do it if they can't "win" something.
I’m a high school music teacher, and for our concert festival competitions, we aren’t ranked, but rather rated, by three judges. The top rating is (Unanimous) Superior, but there is nothing stopping all groups performing that day receiving that rating. It’s similar to CPL, except we actually get to see the ratings.

For marching band we still have placings, but it’s a very different animal to concert band/orchestra.
__________________
You don't have fun by winning. You win by having fun.
Jim Fogelman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 07:55 AM   #38
Green Piper
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,717
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

In WUSPBA the CPL’s are made available to the competitor. I really like judge feedback followed by a indication on where in the grade my performance fits. It means that you’re competing “against” the grade-level rather than other players.
__________________
"Melancholy as the Drone of a Lancashire Bagpipe" (Behn, Aphra 1678. Sir Patient Fancy)
Green Piper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 09:02 AM   #39
EquusRacer
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 4,019
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Re: Two types of competition: Individual and Band.

In individual competition, and in a time where so many other activities/venues hand out awards for just participating, I like that there are placings; goals to work toward; motivation. And, as others have pointed out, I enjoy having judge's comments, particularly when students and I can go over their comments. It never hurts to see statements confirming areas on which to work and/or areas in my instruction that I have overlooked.

Regarding band competition, I miss the decades in the past when (at least in our area) there were actual scores, rather than only the placings. It was a much better indicator of whether we belonged out there. Getting a placing (meaning a 3rd or better, or whatever is awarded), or not placing, doesn't really tell us how close we were to the band(s) ahead of us. And on that topic, it's why I was upset that BCPA (and perhaps other agencies) decided that one has to at least place to be competing on the field in their grade. As someone said, there will always be winners and those who didn't win or place--especially when there is a large field. But that doesn't translate to those who didn't place not deserving to be on the field.
EquusRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2020, 04:45 PM   #40
Jim Fogelman
Holy smoking keyboard!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,070
Default Re: Constructive Criticism for Pipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Piper View Post
In WUSPBA the CPL’s are made available to the competitor. I really like judge feedback followed by a indication on where in the grade my performance fits. It means that you’re competing “against” the grade-level rather than other players.
Did they bring that back? Last time I competed, there was a big blacked out box at the bottom that read "Judge lift to mark CPL" or something to that effect.
__________________
You don't have fun by winning. You win by having fun.
Jim Fogelman is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Silver Sponsor

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:29 AM.