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History, Tradition, Heritage As related to the subjects of piping, drumming and pipe bands.

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Old 07-19-2020, 06:27 PM   #11
Andrew Lenz
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pancelticpiper View Post
AFAIK the first appearance of a bagpipe in the history...
Thank you, Richard, a fine commentary.

Andrew
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Old 07-20-2020, 04:44 PM   #12
Pip01
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave


I've seen some supposed professionals with a tendency for drivel do so.



Greetings to All,

Actually... the tale is told... that the first pipes into the
British Isles... with the Old Celts... some say... had but
the base drone... and some say that there were the bass
and... a tenor drone... and the pipes were played this way
for many years... but... both versions concur that it was
the Scots... about 300 years ago... who added the second
tenor drone... then making a total of... the three drones...

If I may lightly paraphrase an old poem:
"I but tell the tale that I heard told."

And now... more popcorn... please!!

Regards to All,

Pip01






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Old 07-22-2020, 04:20 AM   #13
K Sanger
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Arguments such as who first 'invented' the bagpipe are usually best avoided but with 'lockdown' having deprived me from burying myself in archives the mood is reckless.

The chances of the bagpipe having been first invented in what is now Scotland are low but it is likely that the question is wrong to start with. Any attempts to jump backwards from the current 'Highland pipe' to establish a linage for what is now called a highland pipe has to jump through a number of disconcerting hoops. To instance just one, the fact that up until the latter half of the 18th C Gaelic speaking highland pipers were numerically a minority of the Scottish pipers when taken in absolute numbers.

The question best asked is the 'origin' of piping in Scotland and then how the highland pipes then came to dominance. Why origins? well as an example of how the subject has to be viewed on a larger canvas lets take Pancelticpiper's statement that 'only instruments with bags are bagpipes'.

Certainly correct in a clinical and absolute definition, but consider the following. When in my youth after starting on the practice chanter after a while it was then common to be put on a goose. This was a bag with blowpipe and a stock to take the chanter part of the practice chanter. The concept was that while still effectively working on the practice chanter you also got used to controlling blowing into a bag.

So clearly fits Pancelticpipers precise definition of a bagpipe. However here comes the tricky question, Obviously what the player of the goose is playing is bagpipe music but what about the player of just a practice who is using circular breathing (and their cheeks) to obtain the same uninterrupted flow of air to produce exactly the same sound? Is that not still 'bagpipe' music.

Back to origins and an experiment you can do in the privacy of your own home. Get two matched practice chanters and turn one into a 'top' hand and the other into a 'bottom' hand by taping over the uncovered holes with tape on the rest of each chanter, leaving the lowest hole open on the 'top hand' chanter. Then use a lump of chewing gum to fill the space between the two chanters in your mouth and play them together, (using circular breathing if you can)

What you will get is a constant low A drone provided by whichever chanter is not actually playing the tune. Throw in another pipe to provide a lower drone A and you have an instrument resembling some of the early triple pipes shown on the early 8th- 9th Carved stones from Scotland and Ireland.

The only thing that adding a bag allows is for the instrument to get larger and we do know as I have shown that when we first get any clear written evidence about the nature of the bagpipe in Scotland it was that it existed in both a large and small form certainly before the end of the 16th C.

Which came first though we do not at this stage know.

Keith
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Old 08-20-2020, 09:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

The author completely skips over the general consensus that the pipes originated in Ireland before Scotland, how did the Romans (who never invaded/inhabited the island) bring them to the Irish?

I have thought about this problem myself for a little while now and wonder if the pipes didn’t pass through the Norse Vikings prior to the Irish, who may well have acquired them through the Rus’, who may well have taken them from the Greeks/ Byzantines at Constantinople.
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Old 08-20-2020, 09:49 PM   #15
Ian Lawther
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K Sanger View Post

Back to origins and an experiment you can do in the privacy of your own home. Get two matched practice chanters and turn one into a 'top' hand and the other into a 'bottom' hand by taping over the uncovered holes with tape on the rest of each chanter........

Keith

What you describe is very like the continuing Sardinian musical instrument the launeddas as play here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUNytKmRBPw

I have heard this oxymoronically described as a "bagless bagpipe".
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Old 08-21-2020, 05:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan_in_Surrey View Post
The author completely skips over the general consensus that the pipes originated in Ireland before Scotland, how did the Romans (who never invaded/inhabited the island) bring them to the Irish?

.
General consensus? I have studied bagpipe history for decades, I made a BBC programme on the history of the bagpipe, where I spent weeks interviewing people in Ireland, I work in a museum that has old sets and drawers full of bits of bagpipes hundreds of years old, I talk with published historians and curators on a regular basis, and I don't know one single person that has this view.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:48 AM   #17
David
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

My training was as an historian and research librarian. So many household, musical, cultural objects are not "invented" by one person or one culture in one place at a single time. They are partially developed, or wholly developed, in any number of locations, in many variations. Over they can grow complex, then revert to simpler form, morph, go through unchanging conservative periods, etc. Why would anyone look for a single point of invention? The classic sense of the word "invention" is not a good choice for such an interest as bagpipe origins. Bags & pipes could have existed for centuries in a preliterate society, only to die out. The materials for most premodern instruments typically quite perishable.

Who invented whistling, or the grass blade between the thumbs? Mankind has shown incredible diversity and cleverness in devising ways to break wind in a musical manner.

Of course, there is always a possibility that one man thought up and developed a "bagpipe." Or that only one culture developed the idea. Unlike modern instruments, which are dependent on much more technology and experimentation, and mechanical skills. The saxophone was not likely invented and reinvented in many cultures over time and place. Though Erich von Däniken has detected what he believed to be either an exhaust pipe, a highly advanced energy weapon, or a tenor sax, on an alien spacecraft carved on a Mayan stone wall.

Last edited by David; 08-22-2020 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:13 PM   #18
Andrew Lenz
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Though Erich von Däniken has detected what he believed to be either an exhaust pipe, a highly advanced energy weapon, or a tenor sax, on an alien spacecraft carved on a Mayan stone wall.
"I also hope for the continuing popularity of books like 'Chariots of the Gods?' in high school and college logic courses, as object lessons in sloppy thinking. I know of no recent books so riddled with logical and factual errors as the works of von Däniken." — Carl Sagan

In other works, Carl Sagan believes that it's none of those, but instead is a set of bagpipes on the Mayan stone wall.

Andrew

p.s. Yes, that's a joke!
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Old 08-22-2020, 09:41 PM   #19
EquusRacer
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan_in_Surrey View Post
The author completely skips over the general consensus that the pipes originated in Ireland before Scotland, how did the Romans (who never invaded/inhabited the island) bring them to the Irish?

I have thought about this problem myself for a little while now and wonder if the pipes didn’t pass through the Norse Vikings prior to the Irish, who may well have acquired them through the Rus’, who may well have taken them from the Greeks/ Byzantines at Constantinople.
Some of that posits that things are only introduced by 'invading' populations, armies, etc. and ignores that there were travelers, traders and others (e.g. the "Marco Polo" types, regardless of what you believe or not of his travels) bringing back ideas, products, materials, and so forth.
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Old 08-24-2020, 01:47 PM   #20
Pip01
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Default Re: Who invented the bagpipes?





Hmm... and... Greetings to All,

If... memory serves... and if... I do remember
correctly... didn't the historical recounting of the
Indo-European migration of the Celts... coming
up through Europe...have them in France... and
Brittany is Celtic still...then crossing The Channel...
and landing first in Cornwall and Wales... and then
to Ireland... and... finally... to Scotland?

As for the pipes??... as 'tis noted in some medical
charts... "GOK"... God Only Knows... :)

Any and all additions and corrections are gratefully
anticipated.

Regards to All,

Pip01




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