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Old 11-04-2018, 10:13 AM   #1
CalumII
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Default Chedari and friends

I'm having a wee look at The Bicker (Port a Mheadair, PS 4) and attempting to translate it into canntaireachd, not having used it all that much previously.



I'm looking at the standard Nether Lorn chart in the front of the PS book, which gives E to high G as chedari, but doesn't mention the same movement starting on a high G. The MS itself gives "hiririche [small squiggle] hedareche(?)", including the double echo from the bar before. There's also a squiggle over the A in dare.





Simply hi chedare, or hidare? Or something else? My current attempt at line one:


[1st hihio en] [2nd hin tro] ha en o em hiriri hi hi chedare i de hiharara ha :|]
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:58 AM   #2
Roddy Livingstone
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

You'll find the Campbell Canntaireachd facsimiles are available to members on the Piobaireachd Society's website. Without checking, I think 'The Bicker' is there in Volume 1.
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:05 PM   #3
Ron Teague
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

the Alt piobroch club has this on their web site, cool site.
http://www.altpibroch.com/PrimarySou...The_Bicker.pdf
http://www.altpibroch.com/ps81/
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:59 PM   #4
CalumII
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

Thanks Ron/Roddy,


I've got the scan of the canntaireachd, which raises more questions than answers! Translating what's given literally makes me wonder if Campbell played slightly different notes from the PS setting, or whether this is just one of his variations in how he expressed things.



In any case, I'm more interested in the question of what's the best way to write this in general.
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Old 11-04-2018, 03:58 PM   #5
Tom MacKenzie
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

I have also been translating my tunes into canntaireachd using the new National Piping Centre Highland Bagpipe Piobaireachd Tutor. In Appendix 1 "Canntaireachd" all the Netherlorn canntaireachd is illustrated with their musical notation and their canntaireachd. I find it very handy and gives good results.

Line 1 of the ground of The Bicker in Kilberry, number 66, is, according to this Appendix,


Hi Hio En A En O Em; Hi Ri Ri Hi; Hi Dari I E; Hi Ha Ra Ra Ha.

Hin Tro A En O Em; Hi Ri Ri Hi; Hi Dari I E; Hi Ha Ra Ra Ha.



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Old 11-12-2018, 03:04 PM   #6
Robin73
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

Is it possible that canntaireachd simply doesn't mix with writing? It's an oral language and lacks the precision to accurately convey the music in written form, for which we have an excellent notation system anyway. It could be argued that unless it's used in a purely oral fashion, it is liable to be more of a hindrance than a help in transmitting the music.
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Old 11-13-2018, 04:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

While Robin73 is correct, the Nether Lorn of Colin Campbell was created as a written notational system. It was not designed to be sung.

As such, it strives to be non-ambiguous. But may not be quite as successful as one would hope.

Still, the way to learn to write is is by reading it. If you can imagine learning a language only by reading a dictionary, and then expect to translate into it: that is what is being described.

I do not know how familiar the Campbell material is, but the more time you spend with it, the easier it is to read, the easier it is to perform, the easier it becomes to translate into.

Take your time. It is brilliant, and you will come to enjoy reading it as much as staff notation.


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Old 11-13-2018, 07:40 AM   #8
Tom MacKenzie
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Default Re: Chedari and friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by thevoidboy View Post
While Robin73 is correct, the Nether Lorn of Colin Campbell was created as a written notational system. It was not designed to be sung.

Highland Bagpipe Piobaireachd Tutor Music - Appendix: Sung Cainntaireachd



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Old 11-13-2018, 07:46 AM   #9
thevoidboy
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Default Chedari and friends

Didnít say I couldnít be sung.
Said it wasnít written to be sung. It was written to be read. And we know this from eyewitness evidence at the time.

Gesto , on the other hand, was sung.


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Old 11-13-2018, 10:33 AM   #10
Tom MacKenzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevoidboy View Post
Said it wasn’t written to be sung. It was written to be read.
Here is a source for your statement : Barnaby Brown

"Canntaireachd is an expressive medium intended for the ear; it makes challenging music easier to understand.
Campbell notation, on the other hand, was never designed to be sung; it is a notation system developed on paper for the eye.
The label 'Nether Lorn Canntaireachd', therefore, perpetuates a misunderstanding: Campbell's text is not a dialect of canntaireachd.
Further explanation can be found in my Campbell Notation Guide, page 3."

and on page 3 of that guide he writes

"Between 1782 and 1819, Colin Campbell appears to have written out over 800 pages of notation.
About half of this survives. ‘Campbell notation’ is his personal adaptation of canntaireachd, the expressive vocal substitute for piping.
His notation system is not a regional dialect of canntaireachd and was never sung, at least not as written.
He transformed a vocal medium intended for the ear into a scribal one intelligible to the eye.
...

Colin Campbell did not transcribe anyone’s singing. He forged out of canntaireachd a serviceable notation system, one that is innovative and idiosyncratic."


Funny the NPC didn't mention that.


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