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Old 01-19-2019, 02:10 PM   #21
el gaitero
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalumII View Post

Yes. But that doesn't tell you anything about the reed tongue cycle.

ď A wave front from the tongue clapping shut now moves up the drone. At the far end, it reflects from the open end and travels back down, moving at the speed of sound. When it reaches the reed, it flips the tongue open again. ď

Hmm,...How then does the tongue react (vis open/close, open/close...)..if mouth blowing the drone reed against a roomful of air or a wide open sandy beach...?

I canít see any other way of slicing it...The tongue is open..then shut....if not 50/50 Iím struggling to accept thereís a meaningful measureable difference in the duration of either position. The tongue vibrates..open-shut ,open-shut..creating equal amplitude sound waves.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:44 AM   #22
CalumII
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

> How then does the tongue react (vis open/close, open/close...)..if mouth blowing the drone reed against a roomful of air or a wide open sandy beach...?



It doesn't make any difference. Once the air outside the drone has been set vibrating by the internal system within the drone, it has no effect on what's happening inside the drone.




> The tongue vibrates..open-shut ,open-shut..creating equal amplitude sound waves.



When you take a child to the park, and push them on the swing, are you pushing for 50% of the time?
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Old 01-21-2019, 06:43 AM   #23
Jim Fogelman
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

Shouldnít the reed be open more than itís closed?

Correct me if Iím wrong, but the tongue would always be in one of four states: fully open, closing, fully closed, opening.

Out of those four states, only one is closed; the other three are open to some extent.
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:33 AM   #24
CalumII
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

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Originally Posted by Jim Fogelman View Post
Shouldnít the reed be open more than itís closed?

Correct me if Iím wrong, but the tongue would always be in one of four states: fully open, closing, fully closed, opening.

Out of those four states, only one is closed; the other three are open to some extent.

I wrote a post explaining more or less what's going on here:


http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/...0&postcount=15
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:00 AM   #25
3D Piper
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

Quote:
Shouldnít the reed be open more than itís closed?
That does seem logical, but Calum is correct.. In fact, I clearly remember being at a workshop with Ed Neigh and him saying the same thing: the drone reed is closed more than it is open (he even clapped his hands 'closed' to emphasize the point) and said he discovered that phenomenon using a timing gun.

Here is some slo-mo footage of an uilleann drone reed showing exactly that:

https://youtu.be/HoOii_1zGuM

Crazy, huh?


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Old 01-24-2019, 04:59 PM   #26
DapperDan
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

I've been following this with interest. I'm familiar with the Bruce Hitchings video, and have also dug through some old threads that mention it, and threads on drone reed efficiency generally. In some threads not everyone seems to think that being able to do that test is that important, or that having an airtight tongue on the drone reed is necessary.

So my questions are - 1)how important is it that a synthetic reed not leak air? and 2) assuming it does leak, which my limited observation indicates it probably does, what can be done about this? And I'm talking about reeds that are clean and calibrated properly, perhaps even relatively new, not a dirty reed or one that is set way too open or something.

I tested my cane reeds, and they're airtight. They absolutely can't be beat for efficiency, so it would seem that this is a clear benefit to an airtight tongue.
I tested a few kinds of synthetics though, and found that many of them leak. Without doing an exhaustive breakdown, suffice it to say that some leaked and some didn't, and the ones that leak didn't necessarily feel like they were less efficient, in fact sometimes the opposite.

So now I'm not sure what to think. If the tongues are closed more than they are open, which seems to be the case, then that's air I'm losing and I'm sure it would be better to have them airtight.

Last edited by DapperDan; 01-24-2019 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:24 PM   #27
el gaitero
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

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Originally Posted by DapperDan View Post

- 1)how important is it that a synthetic reed not leak air?

.
In a obvious word...íVERYí... but if youíve got your reeds at thier most efficient setting...that you can easily blow up..cleanly strike in, play...and evenly shut off with a slight bag hump....and/or restart...I wouldnít worry.
Youíre good to go...donít overthink it.
Any minuscule near immeasurable air loss wonít be heard or felt...assuming the bag is also up to par.
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Old 01-25-2019, 04:14 AM   #28
CalumII
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

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Originally Posted by DapperDan View Post
1)how important is it that a synthetic reed not leak air? and 2) assuming it does leak, which my limited observation indicates it probably does, what can be done about this?

In response to (1), the question is, well, what happens when it does lose air? Soundwise, nothing. Physical movement of air through the drones is more or less irrelevant to the sound, which moves far faster than the "wind" speed. So it's purely an air management issue, exactly the same as having a hole in the bag.



A hole in the bag is obviously not ideal, but I think all of us have had the experience of having a "slow puncture" that made little practical difference. Yet, when we fix it, we notice that things are just that little bit more comfortable and easy to manage.



As for what can be done about it: in order for a tongue not to admit air when closed, the two surfaces must be smooth and meet cleanly to form a seal. I think with certain combinations of tongue and body, that's not possible.



The other side of it though, is the air admitted when the tongue cycles. Clearly, if the tongue opens wider, more air will be used. So you could argue that a stiffer tongue, which opens less, will use less air. That said, stiffer tongues must be longer.
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:27 AM   #29
Dan Bell
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

A lot of makes of synthetic reeds leak air if they're not set up right. In some cases, you can't COMPLETELY eliminate it, but you can always adjust your way to high efficiency. It's NOT TRUE that synthetic reeds generally come out of the box in a "plug and play" sort of condition. You're always going to need to optimize them to your setup, playing pressure, etc.
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Old 01-25-2019, 03:41 PM   #30
DapperDan
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Default Re: Losing air at bass drone

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Originally Posted by Dan Bell View Post
A lot of makes of synthetic reeds leak air if they're not set up right. In some cases, you can't COMPLETELY eliminate it, but you can always adjust your way to high efficiency. It's NOT TRUE that synthetic reeds generally come out of the box in a "plug and play" sort of condition. You're always going to need to optimize them to your setup, playing pressure, etc.
OH, I always laugh at the instructions that come with drone reeds that say, (paraphrasing here) "all reeds been tested at the shop - maybe even personally tested by *insert famous piper*! - and should be well calibrated out of the box, so don't adjust them unless you really need to." Then you test them and no TWO of the reeds in the box are set at the same strength, or have bridles sitting evenly around the reed.

At any rate, assuming I keep the reeds clean and have them calibrated properly, with the bridle carefully set, is there anything else to do to eliminate air leaking through the tongue? If I could pick through a bunch of them at a shop personally and select only perfect reeds, that would be one thing, but since I can't...
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