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Old 03-22-2019, 09:42 AM   #11
angusloch
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

Musically, there is no real structural difference between the 3. Probably just a title, i.e., who's it for.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:43 AM   #12
Gus1903
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

I think some tunes just seem as if they've got the wrong title, eg one of my favourite tunes, "Salute on the Birth of Rory Mor MacLeod", always feels more like a Lament to me every time I listen to it. That said, what each individual gets out of a tune is unique to that individual I suppose.
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Old 03-23-2019, 05:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

That’s a good example of distances in culture and time: what we have grown up to expect from music vs what ancient highlanders did. It’s a natural, normal aspect of social history to learn there is nothing immutable about how we hear music.

Funny, we’re taught that “minor keys sound sad” and “major keys sound happy”. But that’s because we are taught that. It’s always presented as “obvious” and “natural”, but it is not.



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Old 03-23-2019, 05:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

Quote:
Originally Posted by angusloch View Post
Musically, there is no real structural difference between the 3. Probably just a title, i.e., who's it for.

What do you mean “no structural difference”? I’m unclear.


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Old 03-23-2019, 10:00 AM   #15
Ron Teague
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

I wonder if anyone has done an analysis of ceol mor tunes to determine which type of tune is composed in which of the three pentatonic scale it is composed in. Could be interesting
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Old 03-23-2019, 10:20 AM   #16
phinson
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Teague View Post
I wonder if anyone has done an analysis of ceol mor tunes to determine which type of tune is composed in which of the three pentatonic scale it is composed in. Could be interesting


Isn't that, in part, what Haddow's book "History and Structure of Ceol Mor" is about?


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Old 03-23-2019, 04:34 PM   #17
K Sanger
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

One of the main problems with these discussions is that to really make any sensible conclusions requires starting from a firm base. This is not helped by the number of tunes with more than one title, especially when they suggest contradictory genre.

For example at the initial behest of the late Roderick Cannon and a further prod by Barnaby Brown I got around to dissecting at one such tune. A march, salute or lament? I lean towards the last but make up your own minds here.

http://www.altpibroch.com/learning/p...of-ross-march/

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Old 03-23-2019, 06:53 PM   #18
thevoidboy
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

Well,

One firm base might be the Gaelic song tradition. Scientists (cultural) used to ignore tradition, but there has been enough advancement where it is no longer dismissed out of hand.

But the other might be a phenomenological approach where titles traditions could supply enough of an analytic sample to identify common characteristics. These could then be used to test other tunes’ structures regardless of their titles.

It is hypothetical, but empirical enough to give it a try. And would have the advantage of being replicable.

This is how any “generic” classifications have begun and been accepted/altered/rejected.

PS I think you are right, Keith.



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Old 03-24-2019, 05:43 AM   #19
K Sanger
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

Well, (imitation is flattery and it is a good way to start).

It does certainly add another weapon to the armory, but it still comes back to the question of how firm the base or ground is. It is rather like the generalisation that when trying to identify how old a hedge is you count the number of different species and the more divers they are the older the hedge is likely to be.

However, that both requires a database of a large number of hedges, the more you have the more likely it is to be correct. Unfortunately with piobaireachd we do not really have a very large number to start with. Furthermore we know that tunes could have original titles which gave way to newer ones. For example that earliest bagpipe tune name we have from 1604, 'Tobacco or the Laird tint his Gauntlet', was banned with the promise of dire consequences for the piper if he played by those or under any other names.

There is also a problem with using the poetry approach. The same Gaelic poems/songs could be and often were sung to a number of different tunes, if they fitted the song metre. Then we have the additional problem that the poets produced a large number of satirical works including mock laments. So a tune labelled as a lament, unless you could tie it to any words might not be.

So even with using Gaelic songs the question of a reliable baseline does not go away. As you know I have put some of this into a diagrammatic form as the evolution of the Urlar.
http://www.altpibroch.com/learning/w...-evolution.jpg

This chart arose out of the long telephone discussions Roddy Cannon and I used to have where if I floated an idea he always wanted me to 'write it up and publish it'. An approach conditioned by his scientific and professorial background whereas I having been a clinical scientist was more interested in practical hands on application rather than scientific publication. Still do as working up publications gets in the way, time-wise, of archival research.

Keith
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:02 AM   #20
Jay Close
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Default Re: Difference between a Salute, Gathering and a Lament?

Just a couple of stories that are apt, I think:

1. My primary ceol mor mentor was Willie Connell, for 14 years a student of Robert Reid. Willie said Reid had little interest in tune histories, stories etc and felt like the best clues to interpretation were to be found within the music itself. Willie assumed, then, that Reid's tutor, John MacDougall Gillies, probably took a similar stance, but Reid said "no". Gillies loved the tune stories and told them over and over, but Reid soon learned that often the same story got told for multiple tunes and that there seemed to be little rhyme or reason that correlated the story with what he was being asked to play.

2. Many years ago Donald MacLeod wrote an article on ceol mor interpretation and the Gaelic "blas" or feel of the music. Contrary to my expectation, he argued it was the English speaker who seemed fixated on a tune history or story, imagining clashing swords or keening women folk as they played a battle tune or lament. The Gaelic speaker, he said, was much more likely to treat a tune as a tune and little more. It's just music and all that one needs to know about it is in the tune itself. If I recall, this was published in a long defunct journal called "The Pipers' News Press" edited by Donald Varella. If folks are interested I can probably find the reference.

Cheer!
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