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Technique & Instrument Related to techniques, to the instrument, to the components, to maintenance.

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Old 05-11-2019, 04:42 PM   #21
CalumII
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

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Originally Posted by thevoidboy View Post
Why?

Because the reason you do not hear people "arguing" over thumb position or wrist height is that very good players and teachers have thought very deeply about these things, and transmitted them to their pupils, not because there is nothing to say. Because I have made several changes to the way I play and teach certain things based on my reading of it, and because taking an interest in how music is made is the first business of the musician.



Because as good a player as you are, you can be better (and I don't mean you in a general sense, I mean you in particular). For someone with your musical mission, you seem deeply uncurious about other perspectives, and you would be a better musician for addressing that.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:40 PM   #22
Freeman
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

I came across this feature article on the pinky which was a good read.

https://bagpipe.news/2019/04/28/the-...pinkie-debate/
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Old 05-11-2019, 08:50 PM   #23
3D Piper
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

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Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
I came across this feature article on the pinky which was a good read.

https://bagpipe.news/2019/04/28/the-...pinkie-debate/
That was a good read
After reading this thread's posts, then that article, it's like deja vu all over again

-Matthew
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Old 05-12-2019, 05:29 AM   #24
thevoidboy
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

Thank for that link.
Because that reflects exactly what I have experienced.
Good players have thought about this long and hard indeed.
And the evidence is always much messier than we care to believe.

The question is, why do pipers insist that there is always one and only way way of doing things? Playing jigs, strathspeys, reels, marches, pibroch, fingering?

I have my theories (competition, mimicry, the confusion between musicianship and success, the near absence of any support for a true professionalism of performance outside the incessant competition arenas).

People need to chill. It’s a C. Play it in whatever way helps you play the music well.


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Old 05-12-2019, 06:09 AM   #25
pancelticpiper
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

This stuff about "never using incorrect" or "false" fingering reminds me of when I joined my first band, in the 70s.

They were playing Troy's Wedding and I was trying to play it with "correct" fingering throughout. They said "what are you doing? Don't make it harder than it is!"

They would play the low-hand notes with the low hand and the quick High A's with the upper hand- all the High A's were "false".

Who was I to question them? I was a newbie and some of those guys had won Silver Chanters- they went on to become piping judges.

Ditto with the Open C's in some hornpipe they played, a very quick C before a birl on Low A.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:04 AM   #26
David
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

Part of the issue is WHAT is perceived at such high speed by the human ear, and solo versus band presentation. An experienced PM years ago suggested that the human ear would not register the difference between an open or closed C in a very fast cut note. However, he also suggested that either way, the entire band should play the same on that quick C. Fairly much the common sense of most musician-pipers.

That said, the better a piper was taught, and practiced efficiently, and learned to play the faster tunes well with clean fingers, the less this open C is even an issue.

I used to think about this because my first tutor was an elderly woman who played with an old Hardie chanter. Closing the C sounded bad. But on my newer Hardies, open Cs sounded bad.

Open, if at all, only on very quick Cs. I'd never advise an open C on a tachum in a march. The better tuned your pipes, the steadier your blowing, the more you will hear the difference in all but the most rapid of phrases.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:11 AM   #27
Armorican
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

At what point do you decide that a C is short/quick enough to play it open?

The idea that an open C is sometimes permissible comes from a time where tuning, especially in pipe bands, was much more approximate.

Anyone who has learned within the last 40-50 years should be at least trying to play properly, ie. closing the C every time. There's no excuse nor reason to do otherwise.

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Old 05-13-2019, 12:32 PM   #28
David
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

The point at which one might--perhaps--play an open C is the point of actual perception. It would be interesting to test experienced players, who cannot see the player's fingering, on detecting an open C or not. If the off-tone is even slightly perceptible, then end of story.

Who actually hears the open C, when played virtually as a 64th note? As has been pointed out, we do play grace notes in alternate positions. Tradition has it that those grace notes do not register as unpleasant tones.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:26 AM   #29
CalumII
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

Certainly it is possible to detect the gross pitch of very short notes. Gracenotes that aren't what I expect stand out a mile. However, the Western ear is very good at classifying notes into scale degrees, so I suspect it would take some degree of training to be able to pinpoint intonation issues.



The other point that occurs to me is that an open C could easily be played too quickly. Many short Cs have a dynamic role and need a certain "width" to achieve that effect.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:35 AM   #30
David
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Default Re: Pinkie Finger Down for Quick C?

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Originally Posted by CalumII View Post
Certainly it is possible to detect the gross pitch of very short notes. Gracenotes that aren't what I expect stand out a mile. However, the Western ear is very good at classifying notes into scale degrees, so I suspect it would take some degree of training to be able to pinpoint intonation issues.



The other point that occurs to me is that an open C could easily be played too quickly. Many short Cs have a dynamic role and need a certain "width" to achieve that effect.
And there you have it. Many "pipers" will rely on apparent rules, and what they were told, rather than relying on their ears. The electronic tuner generation needs an external device to let them know if they're playing in tune. Hearing an open C as an off-note is a matter of training for most, I suspect. Yet we do not hear the "false" tones of "false" fingered gracenotes and embellishments, so . . .
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