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Old 04-20-2017, 07:31 AM   #31
Rooklidge
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

For years, Ladies Pipe Bands were a way of encouraging women to play the pipes and drums. The Australian Ladies PB were treated as an oddity on their worldwide tour, and I admit being very impressed at the site of the Vancouver Ladies marching in heels. Some bands, including one of my first, did not allow women to play in their ranks until well into the 1990s. The view was held then, and apparently still by some, that women don't play in the same manner as men and would not blend seamlessly with the other male players. That and women were perceived in an all-male environment as trouble. It was simply misogyny then, and no matter the attempts to cover it in biology or tradition, it is misogyny now. Quite embarrassing that it lingers, but I suppose we should let the petard these men carry do its eventual duty.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:44 AM   #32
3D Piper
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

https://youtu.be/AoqNpXqHZSE?t=1m

I hope I'm not taken the wrong way, but unless we were there and witnessed it who is to say how the comment was meant (and how it was taken, for that matter).. It is easy to see words written here and get all riled up, but the actual even may have been much different.

Crazy to think our heritage is a martial one, the pipes and drums have been taken all over the world in battle and are so respected and revered..... and now we are so sensitive at a comment like this..

Girls can absolutely do as well as boys, if not better.. I have many more girls in my band than boys, and I wish I had more!


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Old 04-20-2017, 08:21 AM   #33
Macswegan
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob864 View Post
I'm stunned that so many people honestly believe there are not differences between men and women. We're not the same and pretending otherwise cannot lead to good outcomes.
I really don't think this is the issue at all. Are there differences between men and women? Sure. But are these differences so large, regular, and consistent that one can say "this is how men play" and "this is how women play"? I don't think so.

Consider a few of the differences between two purely hypothetical players (one of each sex):

1. Tune selection: Both of my imaginary pipers are going to learn a new piobaireachd. One loves "The Old Men of the Shells" and the other absolutely hates that tune and picks "The Red Speckled Bull."
2. The instrument: one favors a slightly brighter and sharper sound, the other a slightly flatter tone that (he or she thinks) sounds fuller with the drones.
3. One person noticeably slows down at the ends of variations.
4. One person has a greater contrast in tempo between singlings and doublings.
5. One person can always knock a regular taorluath out of the park, but sometimes struggles slightly with a taorluath tripling. The other has fantastic technique all the way around, except for (rarely) messing up a taorluath or crunluath from D.
6. One likes piobaireachd, but also plays lots of light music in a good band, while the other is madly in love with piobaireachd, and never plays light music.
7. One was taught by two great Scottish teachers, and the other by a great Canadian.
8. One is having great difficulties in his or her personal life, and the other is currently happy as a clam.
9. One has been playing for fifteen years and the other for forty.

Are the two of them going to play differently? I should think so. We bring who we are, and what we have learned, and where we are in life to the playing of music. Is gender the defining factor? I can't think why it should be.
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Old 04-20-2017, 09:45 AM   #34
johnsog
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

Despite the differences, to be professional an adjudicator should document those things that others would note as well, things that are objective. Stating something that all would noticed and agree to is fine. That one plays "like a girl" or "too aggressively", etc., are matters of opinion and not commonly held feelings so should not be included.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:33 PM   #35
Paul M Burke
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

And the winning Quarterback in the superbowl...oh I forget her name... Anybody????

Paul
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:01 PM   #36
wysper
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsog View Post
Despite the differences, to be professional an adjudicator should document those things that others would note as well, things that are objective. Stating something that all would noticed and agree to is fine. That one plays "like a girl" or "too aggressively", etc., are matters of opinion and not commonly held feelings so should not be included.
That is it though isn't it. Judging is subjective not objective.
It is how that judge on that day feels about that performance.
As I bet all judges are subtly different in what the hold most important.
Tone, timing, phrasing, musicality (what ever that might be) etc.

So then you get how that subjectivity is phrased.
The power of language is vast, as is its interpretation.

Some one might describe one passage as aggressive, the next person might describe the same passage as forceful, yet another heavy handed and so it goes on.

A performance isn't definitively measureable, unlike a race, where getting the winner is relatively easy.

And how you describe something is (as someone mentioned earlier) a product of who you are and what state you are in that day.

I think as a judge you need to be aware of how your turn of phrase might affect the person reading it just as their turn of phrase on the instrument affected how you thought of their playing.

Of course there is no other way of doing it, humans are fallible and that is part of the challenge and the thrill of competing I guess. You roll your dice, you take your chances.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:31 PM   #37
el gaitero
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

In the old days before email I used to seek out the judge afterwards to discuss what more exactly was meant if some written comment wasn't entirely clear to me.

Sometimes I'd even call by phone if possible within a few days while still fresh for both of us.

Being 'well read' is helpful...different euphenisms applied by different judges from around the country or from different countries all speaking different English
can spin your thoughts differently.

But perhaps I digress from the initial concept of this post...which I can't fathom we've filled 4 pages with much ado.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:50 PM   #38
colinmaclellan
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gaitero View Post
...with all respect.....it sounds like convivial beer tent banter ...unless it was indeed a malicious sneering gaff. Was it?
The latter. And it wasn't in a beer tent.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:19 PM   #39
el gaitero
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

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Originally Posted by colinmaclellan View Post
The latter. And it wasn't in a beer tent.
Then...onto his petard!...
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:18 AM   #40
CalumII
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Default Re: You play like a girl!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob864 View Post
I'm stunned that so many people honestly believe there are not differences between men and women. We're not the same and pretending otherwise cannot lead to good outcomes.
I've had to delete the first response I wrote to this.

I teach the pipes, for a living. I teach men, women, boys, girls. There is no difference. Then they go out into the piping scene and they meet people like you and attitudes like this and I am sick to death of it. The little remarks. The silly little comments. You didn't really mean it. It was just banter. Women do NOT need your, or anyone else's, opinions on what they are and aren't capable of or how they perform.

Just don't do it. Just don't.

You know, I love the pipes and I love the music, but sometimes the people really depress me. It's not just you. You can hear this same nonsense spouted everywhere in the piping world. They don't tell you why they leave. They just get sick of the little put downs and the slightly creepy middle-aged married guys and they quietly hand their kit in and go while the rest of us just carry on laughing in the bar.

The piping scene needs to grow up.
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