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History, Tradition, Heritage As related to the subjects of piping, drumming and pipe bands.

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Old 12-29-2005, 09:58 PM   #21
Yuri
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

There is a group of very similar pipes centered on Hungary, including ones from Slovakia, Rumania, And Serbia/Croatia. They differ in small details, but all share the principal design of a double (sort of) chanter. It has 6 (sometimes 5) fingerholes and a thumbhole.(very rarely missing)on the left bore, and a single fingerhole for the right-hand little finger. The latter acts as a variable drone, the closed/open fingerhole producing tonic/dominant, just as in the French cabrette of Gascogne. The Eastern European pipes, however all do have a large drone as well.
With most of these pipes the 6 fingerholes produce nearly or exactly the same sequence as the local 6-hole pipes.And the pipers are nearly always whistlers, too; the two instruments share a lot of the repertoire.Some of these bagpipes have a similar feature to the Bulgarian pipes in that they have a "fleahole", it is the top index finger's hole, but unlike the Bulgarian ones, instead of lining the fingerhole with a quill leading into the thumbhole opposite, these ones have a thick ridge of wood left on the otherwise carved-away chanter, into which the fleahole is drilled.The pipes with fleahole are in minority, though, and a lot of players, even when owning a pipe with a fleahole, prefer to block it off.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:08 PM   #22
oldmanEric
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

It's been 13 years since I first posted my conundrum with my daughter learning the recorder and pipes. Well, guess I was not a great role model for those. She plays fiddle! But I can tell you the first time we played together (me on smallpipes) was one of the biggest thrills of my life. Piping has been very special to me.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:30 PM   #23
Klondike Waldo
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric s. View Post
Hello and thank you for the wonderful and detailed info concerning my daughter's recorder situation. Now I am a bit worried. I very much want her to learn the pipes. Her school music teacher assigns all students to learn recorder. Although I agree with the posted reply saying that learning recorder is a nice intro to music, I am worried that this could interfere with her learning the pipes. I know that I got my knuckles and fingers repositioned a few times with the comment that I must have played the fife (which I do) before taking to the pipes.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but the pipes are really important to me and her learning them seems important to her.
-eric
Forgive me if this seems harsh, but looking back at your post ( See the bolded sections above), as a former Music teacher myself, my first question is: What does your daughter want? As for the interference part: on recorder, she'll learn to play music, produce sound and control it using her fingers ( which at this point may not be big enough to finger a highland chanter) and breath control. Yes, the fingering and breathing will be slightly different from Recorder on practice chanter and pipes, but in my years of experience, learning recorder has not been an impediment to students later learning clarinet, flute, saxophone ( all have keys, BTW) trumpet trombone or any other instrument in teh band or orchestra, so I see no reason why it would impede anyone who wanted to learn pipes. Regarding the Mole Hill: yes and it's a very small mole indeed.
Relax, stop worrying and let her do her thing.( which, having just noticed this thread was years ago, turned out to be fiddle, after all.)
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Last edited by Klondike Waldo; 10-10-2017 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:49 PM   #24
Pip01
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?



Greetings to oldmanEric, and to All,

One of the original inducements to me of joining in
with the lovely people on your Dunsire Forum... was
the wonderful (and thoughtful) archeological Threads...
that ran... and turned... and cavorted about... and faded...
but then... again became... resurrected(!!)... to be given
new reflection... and further consideration...

'Tis a quite grand place, here... and I am grateful for it!! :)

And, oldmanEric... I am greatly enheartened (that's most
probably not a real word... but I like it :) to read that your
small pipes... and your daughter's fiddle... have brought
joy ... to you both!! :) (That' what the music... is for!! :)

Regards to You Both, and to All,

Pip01


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Old 10-12-2017, 03:54 AM   #25
pancelticpiper
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Lenz View Post
It's been pointed out to me that the fingering on a recorder is very similar (if not the same) as the fingering on a bagpipe chanter.

Is anyone aware of any connection between these two instruments back in the mists of time?

Thanks,
Andrew
Going all the way back to the OP, what strikes me as interesting is, just of the instruments I happen to know about, the large number that use the same digits to cover the same pattern of holes.

That in and of itself wouldn't be surprising. One would just assume that all the instruments are closely related and work more the less the same.

The interesting part is that many of these instruments have completely different fingering systems, not to mention technologies, in spite of using the thumb, index, middle, and ring fingers of the upper hand and the index, middle, ring, and (not always) the little finger of the lower hand.

So for example on the Highland pipes and uilleann pipes and South American kena/quena and Bulgarian gaida and kaval the thumb merely extends the range of finger-holes.

But on the recorder and Gaita Galega the thumb-hole functions as the register key.

By the way, going back to Andrew's original question, in Spain they don't have such a thing as a practice chanter, but instead use their local style of recorder, called a flauta, which has the same fingering and produces the same notes as the chanter of the Gaita Galega.

All of our orchestral woodwinds and a vast number of folk flutes and bagpipes and shawms and whistles have the same basic underlying note-pattern and fingering patterns.

Bagpipes differ more than flutes and such, I think it's safe to say, because some bagpipes have an open system (Gaita Galega) some a closed system (Northumberland smallpipes) and the vast majority somewhere between.

The really striking example of "same fingers on same holes but different notes" is the Bulgarian Kaval, which, as you raise each finger in succession, produces a chromatic scale. To get a diatonic scale you have to raise fingers in pairs.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:13 AM   #26
pancelticpiper
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
There is a group of very similar pipes centered on Hungary... all share the principal design of a double chanter. It has 6 fingerholes and a thumbhole on the left bore, and a single fingerhole for the right-hand little finger. The latter acts as a variable drone... (the pipes possess) a large drone as well.
This technical complexity shouldn't take our attention from the fact that the Hungarian pipes produce very beautiful music! For, as Baines said "musical instruments exist for the music played upon them, and for that alone".

Here's some gorgeous piping and gorgeous singing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku0nqEZJVS4
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:40 AM   #27
Andrew Lenz
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

It's kind of fun to pull up long-dormant threads. Makes you wonder where some folks went after 12 years since the last post and the 14 years since it was started.

Andrew
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:32 PM   #28
el gaitero
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Default Re: Pipe chanter vs. recorder fingering?

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Originally Posted by Roger Huth View Post


'A pity they didn't learn the practice chanter first' is thought going through my mind when teaching.
Indeed a worthwhile challenge.... to convince the school boards of auld Alba to do so universally with its national instrument ...from a wee age.
And yes ,follow on in tandem or closely with the recorder to expand the mindset.
Someone might have to come up with a reedless good sounding kryptonite proof child’s practice chanter though.
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