Welcome to
the forums at bobdunsire.com
bobdunsire.com forums
bobdunsire.com forums bobdunsire.com forums
You can reset your password by going here. Be sure to try your current email and any email addresses you may have had in the past.
Otherwise please use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the forums. In order to help you, please provide the following info: Your Display Name from the old forum and any possible email addresses you would have used before. Without that info we cannot locate your account.


Go Back   Bob Dunsire Bagpipe Forums > Other (not GH) Bagpipes > Uilleann, Northumbrian, Smallpipes +
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Uilleann, Northumbrian, Smallpipes + For all types of (non GH) Bagpiping discussions.

Platinum Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2011, 01:54 PM   #31
K Sanger
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scotland
Posts: 195
K Sanger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Paul
I looked at the Folklore article but it seems rather vague about actual dates for Hunsley. The Glens, and there was more than one Glen firm for most of that time, would not be in the frame time-wise until after circa 1840.
The 'Glen papers' are known, the National Library of Scotland has the music manuscripts cataloged at MSS 3296 -3302, and the early printed music books are part of the library 'music' archive. The Glen's own family papers are also there as Accession 9594.
The earliest account book runs from 1838, I read it through many years back and Roddy Cannon also has read it and quotes some material from it in his 'Bibliography of Bagpipe Music', I can not remember that many references to 'bagpipes' as apposed to other instruments, at the time I was chasing harps, but certainly I would have thought that if there had been anything like a reference to a 'Lincolnshire' pipe or piper, Roddy would have picked up on it.

K Sanger
K Sanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Gold Sponsor
Old 01-14-2011, 02:01 PM   #32
paul roberts
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 170
paul roberts
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

thanks Keith, sounds like a dead end then. Hunsley died in 1851 so there was an overlap with the Glens, but Rod would certainly have noticed anything in the account books, he has long been interested in Hunsley himself.
paul roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2011, 05:30 AM   #33
james moran
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: England & Poland & Galicia & Ireland
Posts: 127
james moran
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

I received a CD this morning from the Heritage Trust of Lincolnshire.
The pictures and two documents can be found here:
http://www.deffgoat.co.uk/jm/LincsPipes.html
james moran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 04:46 AM   #34
Pete Stewart
Forum Silver Medal
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pencaitland, East Lothian, Scotland
Posts: 484
Pete Stewart
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Quote:
Originally Posted by james moran View Post
I received a CD this morning from the Heritage Trust of Lincolnshire.
The pictures and two documents can be found here:
http://www.deffgoat.co.uk/jm/LincsPipes.html
thanks for this; I note that the carving in Moorby church, according to this article was installed when the church was [re] buil in 1846 - no certain indication of where it came from;
On reflection I realised that I had seen this piper before; going through my files I found buried among photocopies of early issues of Common Stock an article from the Journal of the North Amercian Association of Lowland Pipers, August 199[0 or 1] by John Addison in which he describes the making of his 'Lincolnshire bagpipe', the one described in the links you posted. I had the complete NAALP archive as pdf's somewhere; any one know where they are on the web now?
Pete Stewart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2011, 03:02 PM   #35
paul roberts
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 170
paul roberts
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Let me add my thanks too.

The Notes and Queries article is one I haven't seen before. I must try and collate the refs to the various N&Q articles, there seem to be several.

This one would appear to be the source of the idea in Wiki and elsewhere that Pepys refers to the Lincolnshire bagpipe. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. IIRC the passage about "mighty barbarous music" refers to the playing of Sir Francis Hollis (a Dorset man in London) on the usual unspecified "bagpipe". Pepys tantalizingly describes these as "….with pipes of ebony tipped with silver", so hardly the oaten pipe.

Pepys of course has several refs to bagpipes and pipers, and seems to have taken bagpipes for granted as part of the normal everyday London world, but I don't remember any indication they ever had any particular regional association for him, except perhaps in the story of the duel between one of the Howard family of Northern English grandees and a crass guest who mocked the bagpipe music Howard provided for a dinner entertainment...though he could have been mocking the low class/rustic/old fashionedness of bagpipes as much as the northernness. But certainly no Lincolnshire link that I am aware of.
paul roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2011, 04:03 AM   #36
paul roberts
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 170
paul roberts
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Thought I’d bump this thread to add some extra information on the Pepys reference, which I give in full below, as it usually appears:

Having done here, I out and there met Sir Fr. Hollis, who do still tell me that, above all things in the world, he wishes he had my tongue in his mouth, meaning since my speech in Parliament. He took Lord Brouncker and me down to the guards, he and his company being upon the guards to-day; and there he did, in a handsome room to that purpose, make us drink, and did call for his bagpipes, which, with pipes of ebony, tipt with silver, he did play beyond anything of that kind that ever I heard in my life; and with great pains he must have obtained it, but with pains that the instrument do not deserve at all; for, at the best, it is mighty barbarous musick. (24th march 1668)

Andrew Holgate contacted me recently to say he had used Latham & Mathews “new and complete transcription” of Pepys (2000) and this identifies “Sir Fr. Hollis/Holles”, not as Sir Francis, but as his cousin Sir Frescheville. An evening trawling the web suggests this is indeed the more likely identification, at this stage perhaps about 98% certain.

It seems there is some parallel between the two men's careers, both were MPs for example, and it’s not been possible to gather enough information on Francis to totally rule him out of the picture (the most crucial text here is Henning’s “The House of Commons, 1660-1690” and Google books blocks the relevant pages). However there‘s no doubt that the available information on Frescheville fits the various Pepys references perfectly.

Frescheville was a Grimsby man and MP for that town, which is where the story becomes relevant to “Lincolnshire pipes”. He was also an officer in the 2nd Foot Guards in 1668 which would explain the duty "upon the guards".

However, as Andrew points out, the biggest revelation from the Latham/Mathews edition is this: it translates “bagpipe” as “bagpiper”. Pepys of course wrote his diary in a secret shorthand. It would seem Pepys did write “bagpipe” in shorthand, but crossed it out and added “bagpiper” above in longhand, something ignored by previous editions.

All this paints a completely different picture. Instead of a gentleman piper from the far south, we now have either a North Country gentleman patronizing a piper, and/or an early example of a piper in a “British” Army regiment.

It isn't surprising to find a north Lincolnshire gentleman maintaining or patronizing a “personal” piper - there are examples of gentry patronage of pipers at this period in other parts of the north, e.g. Sir John Reresby at Thybergh in Yorkshire, only some 45 miles away from Holles at Grimsby. In this respect its worth noting that both Frescheville and his father Gervase were strong Royalists: in my experience those 17th and 18th century northern English gentlemen who patronized pipers tended to be Royalists/Jacobites (often Catholics) who were probably consciously maintaining “the good old ways”. (Francis, in contrast, was the son of Denzil Holles, an important figure on the Parliamentary side in the Civil War).

Moreover, given the history of the 2nd Regt. Foot Guards, the "Regimental piper" idea can’t be discounted - indeed, it doesn’t contradict the idea of Holles maintaining a personal piper, the man could have filled both roles. English piping in the Restoration era was generally associated with “the North Country” (which at the time seems to have included what we would now call the north midlands - the area from Shropshire and Cheshire across to Lincolnshire) and this unit had a Northern origin.

The 2nd FG was General Monck’s Regiment, later called the Coldstream Guards, one of only two modern Household regiments with an unbroken link to the New Model Army. It was formed in 1650 in Northumberland from 5 companies of Fenwick's Regiment and 5 companies of Hazelrig's regiment, to take part in Cromwell's campaign against the Scots.

Fenwick was a Northumbrian gentleman and MP for Morpeth. Hazelrig was from Leicestershire and MP for Leicester. Although Hazelrig is a Northumbrian place name the surname is indeed native to and mainly concentrated in Leicestershire.

Wiki says Fenwick’s regiment grew out of a “North Country militia” in the second civil war, however, it’s not clear if Hazelrig’s unit had any specific Midlands/northern character. In the first civil war Hazelrig was involved in fighting throughout the country, and at least one of the units he commanded then were known as “the London Lobsters”, so his regiment of 1650 may have been more “cosmopolitan” than Fenwick‘s. In any case, my experience (of the 18th to 20th century anyway) is that few British military units retain a totally regional character for very long, and whether the 2nd Foot Guards still had a fundamentally northern/midlands character in 1668 would require some research, probably in primary sources. But given the close association of bagpipes with the north in the Restoration era, this might well explain the piper, and be an interesting early use of pipers in the British Army, and in an English regiment too.

Of course, whether this man was playing a distinctive “Lincolnshire” bagpipe we have no way of knowing. But “pipes of ebony tipped with silver” tells us he certainly wasn’t playing an “oaten pipe“!
 
 

Last edited by paul roberts; 06-06-2011 at 04:48 AM.
paul roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2011, 06:18 AM   #37
K Sanger
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scotland
Posts: 195
K Sanger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Paul, sorry to be pedantic but there was no 'British Army' before 1707, before the union of the parliaments there was an English Army subject to and funded by the English Parliament at Westminster, and a Scottish Army subject to and funded by the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, and as far as the latter went there was nothing particularly unusual about the regiments having pipers, they had been there formally by an act of the Scottish Parliament in 1643.

But if you wish to chase English military pipers I can give you a fairly late reference. In Aug 1798 in Edinburgh a William Pudgley Piper in the 11 th Regiment married a local girl called Robertson. Pudgley is a variety of a Cornish name and the 11th was a regiment from that area. He is unlikely to be a fifer as there was no sign of confusion between fifes and pipes at that time, so what sort of rare Cornish piper was he?

K Sanger
K Sanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2011, 12:16 PM   #38
paul roberts
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 170
paul roberts
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Not pedantic at all Keith, in fact in the first version of the text I put “British” in commas and added a note in brackets to the effect that “there was of course no British Army before 1707”, but I edited it out (along with lots of other stuff) on the grounds that any interest in this aspect of the tale would be from the point of view of when pipers first appear in what was to become the British Army, and the Coldstream Guards are obviously a foundation regiment of that Army. Perhaps it was a cut too far - in my defence I see I did leave the commas round “British” (Army) earlier in the text!

The Pudgley reference is very interesting indeed. The name must be pretty rare, it’s not in any of my surname reference books, but I did find a couple of names that look related, and they are also very local to south-west England: Pugsley (Devon) and Pidgley (Hampshire/Dorset). I suppose it could also be a variant of Pudge (Herefordshire) or even Rudgley (Hampshire/IOW). Either way we are surely pretty firmly within the catchment area of the 11th (North Devonshire) Regiment.

And yes, by 1798 I think it would be rare for “piper” to mean anything other than a bagpiper in a military context. Or for that matter in a civilian context - my impression is that in the 17th and 18th centuries “piper” almost always means either a bagpiper or (more rarely) a pipe and tabor player, and almost never a player of fife, whistle, flute, shawm ,or other wind instruments. Perhaps this is that rare occasion where it does mean a fifer, though military fifers were officially classed as “drummers”. As always it would be nice to find out more.
 
paul roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2011, 04:02 AM   #39
paul roberts
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 170
paul roberts
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Perhaps also worth adding that if there’s one place where “piper” might be expected to mean “bagpiper” without ambiguity it is late 18th century Edinburgh!
paul roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2011, 05:08 AM   #40
K Sanger
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Scotland
Posts: 195
K Sanger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Lincolnshire Bagpipes??

Paul, I took the original reference from the Scottish Record Society, 'Canongate Marriages' but as I was in the archives this morning I thought I would take a look at the original entry. Much as I am loth to disagree with the eminent people who edited that volume I am not convinced and think it is iffy.

I would tend to read that word as starting with the old style double ff's but it is certainly not straight forward as the writer has used normal capital F's elsewhere, including just two words down at his wifes name, Fleming Robertson. (she should be easy to track?), so it is odd a reversion to old style just at that point, but if my reading is right, it could be really ffifer spelt in the older style, although I can see why the editors read it as P, its not unsimilar to one way of writing p.

If you want I can get a copy and you can make up your own mind?

K Sanger

Last edited by K Sanger; 06-08-2011 at 05:09 AM. Reason: spelling
K Sanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Silver Sponsor

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:49 AM.