Teaching adult bagpipe students

[Macswegan]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wright

I don't think it's because I'm telling them that they can't do it, because I've had others who did pretty well. But on the other hand, just about every kid I've taught has done great, and several of them play in the upper grades. I've gotten the impression from other piping instructors that my experience has been typical.

It is entirely possible that my experience has been atypical. Several of the kids that I've taught were clearly only there because their parents were forcing them to be. (Dad: "I always wanted to play the pipes and never got a chance. I want Johnny to have the chance I never did." Me: "Huh. Do *you* want to take lessons?" Dad: "No, but I want Johnny to learn.") None of those students went anywhere.

I don't think that instructors are directly telling their adult students that they can't make progress, but I do think that adults pick up that message everywhere they go. I've heard it at band practices, solo contests, and everywhere else, and I think many students internalize it very quickly. Some adult pipers are their own worst enemies, and I wonder if those pipers can even talk about young players without drawing negative comparisons to themselves. I once heard an older adult student talking about how fast "young Tommy" was improving, and that he wished he had that kind of sheer talent. I pointed out that "young Tommy" practiced three hours a day and that no one ever saw him without a practice chanter in his hands. Did the man I was talking to have the capacity to go as far as "young Tommy"? Perhaps not. But he sure could have gone farther than he did if he practiced more.

I agree that a kid who starts at age ten is more likely to make it to the upper grades than an adult who starts at fifty. But I think Bog-Standard's teacher had the right idea -- ask the student where they want to go, and go from there. I've never had a fifty-year-old student say that he or she wanted to be a top solo competitor. They usually say they want to have fun, entertain their family and friends, and maybe someday join a band and march in parades. Most bands in every region I've ever lived in have been Grade IV and V, so none of that sounds unlikely or out of reach to me.

The common denominator I've noticed in teaching is that "People who practice a lot get better. People who don't practice, don't." How much better they get and how fast is guaranteed to vary.

[bob864]

Originally Posted by Macswegan

rhythm, then working on rhythm consistently will help. Can everyone get to the top? No. But with practice, persistence, and good instruction, anyone can get better than they are right now.

I'm quite convinced that this factor is what separates really great teachers from the rest -- i.e., really great teachers honestly believe that all of their students can learn and make progress (in addition to having all the necessary "stuff" to be a good teacher).

Bruce, regarding rhythm -- when I started, my wife, a music teacher, thought my rhythm was really bad. Among the bottom. I used the metronome relentlessly and eventually 'got it'. When I say 'relentlessly' I mean that pretty much anytime I practiced anything I used the metronome. But I also had the advantage of having a professional musician in the house to check my rhythm whenever I felt like I needed it, and quite a few other times as well ("Bob, you're not playing with the metronome" ).

As has been said, if you keep working on it, you can make progress, and as long as one continues to make progress, then the only thing separating that person from being really good, is time.

[Pip01]

ADV,

Well, a couple o' things it ain't 'pposed ta be...

(We generally have fun doing this... otherwise,
why bloody bother??)

So... it ain't supposed to be like... joining the Army...
... pulling teeth..... or killing snakes... !!!

I've had more than one older person who, due to
some most un-fortunate trials in trying to learn,
have despaired of ever being able to achieve
a sustainable and decent playing level.

Take them gently in hand.

Show them basics. Help them learn.

Let them build... albeit... however slowly... on the
successes that they have...

This inculcates confidence... which helps build the
framework on which they can grow... and achieve.

And, then, when the hard bits come, as we all know
they assuredly will... they will, with your help, have
the emotional reserve to slog through them.

I can think of few pleasures greater in this world than
seeing someone whom you have helped, playing
competently... and having a grand time of it!! :)

All the Best With It,

Pip01

[MarkinSA]

Excellent, nobody makes mention of 40 year olds

I started (with no prior musical experience) at the age of 40.

What I struggle with is up tempo pieces.

[Bruce Wright]

Originally Posted by bob864

Bruce, regarding rhythm -- when I started, my wife, a music teacher, thought my rhythm was really bad. Among the bottom. I used the metronome relentlessly and eventually 'got it'. When I say 'relentlessly' I mean that pretty much anytime I practiced anything I used the metronome.

Bob,

That's something that's very likely to help. And again, I've taught some older beginners who were able to use a metronome or some other approach to improve their rhythm remarkably. But I've also taught some older adults who just can't seem to "get" it even with years of working with them using a metronome, recordings, and so forth.

I'm really not sure how much the problem is that they aren't able to absorb rhythm, and how much the problem is that they don't use the metronome when they practice, or don't use it properly. When I start up the metronome at their lessons, they aren't able to play with it, and even more importantly, they are usually not even AWARE that they aren't playing with it. I've tried things like marking up their music to show where the metronome clicks need to fall, having us both clap or sing the melody to the metronome, playing my chanter or singing along with them, and so forth; this often helps for the duration of the lesson but the next week it's the same thing all over again. They tend to claim that they can't hear the difference (Though they usually seem to be able to improve their rhythm during the lesson), which makes me suspect that it's not going into long-term storage. It's kind of hard to tell whether that's caused by age or poor practice habits, but the effect is the same: if you can't hear the problem, it's hard to fix it! Perhaps younger learners are somewhat better able to overcome poor practice habits than are older learners at least in certain respects, because that tends to be less of an issue with them.

As it happens I was working with an older adult beginner last night, who's in his mid-50's. He's been at this for less than a year, but he's been making very good progress, and I talked with him last night about starting to play with our parade band group (which would be a Grade 5 band if we had enough drummers....). I expect he'll do very well there; I wouldn't be surprised if he's playing with the Grade 4 band in a year or two. When he started taking lessons he wasn't particularly outstanding (either good or bad), but he works very hard and really takes working on exercises and working with a metronome very seriously. So a well-motivated older adult certainly can do fairly well, at least in some cases. Whether he ever plays with the Grade 3 band I don't know; certainly I wouldn't put a lot of money on it given past experience, but if anyone in his situation has a chance of doing so it would be someone like him.

But I also have another older adult beginner, about the same age, who's been at this for something like 4 years; he's got pretty good fingers and blows a good bagpipe, but he's been having a huge amount of trouble getting the hang of this rhythm thing (much worse than just a bit of rushing from time to time). It's gotten much better, but I still have a lot of reservations about putting him in the parade band because of that; I'm afraid that he'll confuse everyone else, who are generally not strong pipers themselves. Unfortunately that seems to be an all-too-common problem with older beginners; it's a pattern that I've seen a number of times.

It's quite possible that the problem is more related to poor practice habits than it is to inability to learn. An older adult may be less likely to take their teacher at his or her word that they need to use a metronome or a recording every time they practice, or to be inclined to short-change their practice schedule. (They've been around a while and think they know better than their teacher ). On the other hand, one kid I remember used to play his chanter almost all the time - often not in a very disciplined way, but he played it for many hours a day, to the point that he drove his older sisters (both Highland dancers) to distraction. He's now in his 20's, and a very good piper. I've heard of many adult beginners who won't play either their chanters or their pipes for more than 5 minutes PER WEEK (though none of my students have ever admitted to doing that, at least not on a regular basis .....). Obviously you'll never make any progress if you hardly ever play. Often adults can be their own worst enemies.

Macswegan mentions kids who were forced by their parents to learn pipes. This almost never works - in fact it's about the worst possible reason to learn bagpipes. Usually if I start to suspect that something like that is going on, I'll have a talk with the kid and/or their parents. The kids who really do well will usually be inseparable from their chanters (though getting them to practice in a regular and disciplined way can be a bit harder ...).

--Bruce

[Imbusypiping]

Most instructors are comfortable with a large drop out rate. I've been piping for 37 years. My Dad was the Pipe Major of a large street band in Cornwall. Each year the newspaper would feature a big write up about the band and encourage students (young and old) to try piping and drumming lessons.

We usually had 25-30 piping students each Fall and by the following year, we were happy if 3 or 4 were still with us.

I was recently teaching for a street band. We had an intake of 16 piping students. When I moved away in September, we still had 5 of the original students.

I think that the key is to keep them interested by starting them on popular tunes early. The tunes may only have grace notes to start but as the students gain embellishment proficiency, the tunes start to look like the original composition.

Students were also put on a goose at around the six month mark but were initially only playing exercises. The group was isolated from the rest of the band so as not to be intimidated by the quicker band tempos. When they get to the point where they will be integrated with the band, they will start by playing the tunes they know well and the band will slow the tempo to the students' tempos.

This is a work in progress so I will not be around for the integration process but do look forward to seeing some of my former students next summer when I am back as a quest piper.

[Reed]

I've been following this thread, albeit a bit casually. I'm the guy you're talking about; the adult pipe student. I started on PC when I was 48. I'm 53 now, and still with it. I've 21 public performances under my belt, almost all of them solo. I've learned a helluva lot in 5 years. I'm a bit OCD; I will keep banging away at this until I've reached a standard with which I'm satisfied. I'm not there yet. I strongly doubt that I'll ever be a grade 1 piper. I don't care, as that isn't why I play.

Frankly, there is nothing on this planet more satisfying for me than playing a well expressed tune on a perfectly tuned bagpipe. Notice I didn't say a complicated tune; virtually all the tunes in my active repertoire are simple tunes. My entire goal from day 1 has been to play a simple tune very, very well on a beautifully tuned instrument. I have achieved that basic goal, so now I'm working on more complex tunes, and have been working on Ceol Mor. To me, Ceol Mor is the pinnacle of piping.

Anyway, some important points for success as an adult learner (or juvenile learner for that matter) that I've realized along the way:

1. You must have a mentor; i.e., a knowledgeable teacher who can transfer their knowledge to you in way that you can relate to it, and absorb it. I see no reason why said teacher has to be a gold medal winner. In fact, teachers that compete at high levels but have not won yet often times make better teachers than gold medal winners. Every successful team has coaches. Can you imagine a sports team winning a championship with no coaching staff?! Yet some think that they no longer need lessons because they've been playing for a long time. As long as I play this instrument I will have a coach. The feedback is worth it's weight in gold.

2. You must have goals. They don't have to be large, massive goals like playing at Oban or Inverness. But they must be achievable, and appropo for your skill level. Success and confidence grow when goals are achieved.

3. You must know how to practice. Haphazard practice habits are the main cause of failure, regardless of age, skill level, or so-called 'talent'. Mindless practice is almost as bad as no practice. Practice must be focused, intense, dedicated to very specific tasks, and regular to realize growth. Again, a teacher who understands how to structure your practice so that you reap the maximum benefit is invaluable.

4. You must record your practices and your performances, and carefully analyze them. There is nothing quite as eye opening as hearing yourself on tape. A remarkable practice tool! It's even more effective to video record your playing. Part of the deal for performance is how you present yourself to an audience. A video showcases everything; look, skill, tone, expression-the works!

Of course, all this assumes that the student is willing to listen to their coach and apply what they've been told to do. No coach in the world can make me a better piper unless I practice exactly what I've been instructed to do. My teacher challenges me all the time, no let up. He's merciless! As long as I do what he tells me, I get better. Almost a bit of a no brainer, really. As Bruce has said, he suspects that his slower learners are not applying what he advises them to do. I think he's exactly right. No learner is going to improve with that attitude, are they? It takes the right chemistry between teacher and student, plus a lot of back breaking work. That's it really.

For me piping isn't 'fun' in terms of the common understanding of the word in today's culture. However, it is satisfying to a large degree when it all comes together, and the result is what I've described-beautiful music on a fine instrument. That's what keeps me in the game. Performing for an appreciative audience is also very satisfying; sharing your music. But still, there is almost nothing that compares when I'm alone in my practice space, and a tune flows. Magic!

[Welsh Descendant]

How all so terribly depressing! I started at the age of 65, have practiced 1 1/2 to 2 hours most days for the last three years since then, have had wonderful instruction and support from the members of our Grade IV band and am now a solid band member getting to play in lots of band gigs. I couldn't be happier. So I'll never be in a Grade III, II or I band, so what! And, I still have fun working to get better and some great band members to share my passion with.

[Paul Ouellette]

Welsh D : Your attitude is obviously the correct one !!

Not everyone taking up the pipes will become a gold medalist...nor is that level of ability necessary to enjoy the activity.

There are many people who enjoy a round of golf with friends, and comparably few ever make it into the ranks of the PGA !!

Strive to do your best, enjoy the music and the fellowship...and help the tradition carry on...even the modestly talented among us are custodians of the culture...and remember a youngster you inspire with the uniform & uncomplicated tunes could become a Pipe Major someday !!

Slainte, P.

[Bruce Wright]

Originally Posted by Welsh Descendant

How all so terribly depressing! I started at the age of 65, have practiced 1 1/2 to 2 hours most days for the last three years since then, have had wonderful instruction and support from the members of our Grade IV band and am now a solid band member getting to play in lots of band gigs.

Welsh D: It sounds like you're one of the lucky ones who start out later in life but end up doing OK. (And in that regard, very often the hardest workers also seem to be the lucky ones. ). There are a number of things that can help older adults immensely: Prior musical experience, the ability and interest to put in lots of work to make all it happen, etc. I certainly don't want to discourage such people - but I've also seen a lot of adult beginners who never really go anywhere, never even getting to the point of being able to play with a Grade 5 band. Particularly for older beginners, they have to want it badly enough to do what has to be done, since it will take them more effort than it would have taken when they were younger. At least some of that may require learning new concepts that they haven't encountered before - not always the easiest thing to do if you're over 60, but essential if you haven't done anything with music before.

Best of luck,

--Bruce