GHB players - How did you learn Uilleann pipes?

[Andrew Evans]

I haven't been able to get any response from any of the contacts on David Daye's website, for the past year or so. I was interested in his chanter assembling kits.

[Kevin]

I know your question is about Uilleann pipes, but have you considered pastoral pipes? With the pastoral pipes you get your two octaves so you can play the Irish music and you don’t really need to do much to change your fingering. For jumping the octave I have a key

SNIP

The pastoral pipes are in many ways a good option if you want to expand the range of music you can play.

SNIP

Hi TJones,

This should maybe a new thread, but where and how can one learn more about pastoral pipes? I am interested in a pipe with an extended range and have considered buying a Daye half-set of uilleann pipes and getting some lessons to see if that's for me. If pastoral pipes are a feasible alternative, I would consider that instead but I cant find much info about them, beyond the typical high level stuff on Wikipedia etc. I have so many questions, for instance, how well do they match with Scottish repertoire and Scottish pipe embellishments, how difficult is it to play in the upper register and do most Scottish tunes play in the lower register with some upward extension into the 2nd octave, or do they typically span the octaves (like playing Scottish pipe tunes on D whistle)?

Any resources for beginners that you could point us to, would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, I have only seen a pastoral pipe chanter in the flesh once, and long before I really knew what it was and what questions to ask about it. It was Robin's. I had not seen him in years but ran into him by chance in the middle of covid lock downs a couple of years ago.

Best regards,
Kevin

[Kevin]

I haven't been able to get any response from any of the contacts on David Daye's website, for the past year or so. I was interested in his chanter assembling kits.

I have had the same experience over the last couple of years. I am worried that he has retired. If anyone has updated contact information for him and can confirm that he's still in business, it would be greatly appreciated if you could let us know.

Best regards,
Kevin

[Tjones79]

Yes Richard, I mean experienced pipers! Shortly after I received the Uilleann chanter from Carbony, I got a hold of Channing Dodson to come over and give me a lesson. He does play the highland pipes, but also, like you, he plays the Uilleann, small pipes and flute. He has shared the stage with Irish music luminaries such as Paddy Keenan and Kevin Burke.

https://youtu.be/sRrsXzQQ02Y

https://www.portlandpipes.com/

Michael Long is a session player from Bend Ore. I met him at Cascadia, and he’s been playing a good while. There might have been others at the workshop that gave the chanter a go, also, I don’t remember. The teacher-player that gave the workshop at Cascadia that I mentioned, was none other than Mick O’Brien. So yes, I would call these players experienced.




After several months of trying to connect with David Daye and failing to do so, I was beginning to get pretty nervous. I didn’t want to miss the opportunity to do a workshop with Mick O’brien. The last time I was at Cascadia, I had met Mick and had been very impressed. That year, Cascadia had held an introduction to Uilleann piping class, but it was taught by another piper who lacked the ability to verbalize what he was was doing and was rather poor at teaching. They had supplied chanters, but they were very poor and there weren’t enough to go around, so I felt it was import to have my own chanter.




I met Rob from Carbony at the piper’s Gathering back in 2015 and bought one of his flutes. I liked the flute well enough, but didn’t play it very much. I remember that back in 2015, Rob had mention that he was just beginning to develop an Uilleann chanter with a pipe maker from Corvallis Or. It had been 7 or 8 years, and from his webpage, the chanters looked much nicer that the prototype that he had shown me. So I wondered If he might be willing to make a trade using the flute he had sold me. He was, so I was able to get one of his chanters without spending very much, and I had it in a week. When I received the chanter I was pleased. It’s a straight forward, clean design, and I was able get a nice tone out of it. I called and ask Channing if he could come over and give me some pointers and make sure the chanter was suitable. Like I said, he was pleasantly surprised!




Over the years I’ve seen people give reviews of Carbony instruments after trying them once at a show or festival. Usually these are negative. I’d like to state that both the flute and the Uilleann chanter that I received from Rob are fine instruments. Are they the same as my custom made six key flute or custom made my pastoral chanter, no, but I have no issues with either, and I wouldn’t mind having the flute back. Also Rob has been a pleasure to work with!

[paul_111]

The game-changing thing has been 3D printed chanters, and I would explore that option too.

Might you know of any successful models?

I've wondered about it, but also you would need to sort out the reed... Are Uilleann chanters finicky with reeds? Any idea how hard it would be to reed a printed chanter?

[Silmakhor]

Might you know of any successful models?

I've wondered about it, but also you would need to sort out the reed... Are Uilleann chanters finicky with reeds? Any idea how hard it would be to reed a printed chanter?

yes, they are finicky with respect to humidity. GHB reeds are designed to be played wet, but up reeds are not. Cane up reeds have the best tone, but if you live in a climate with big swings they really don’t like it. For instance, mild and humid summers into cold winters with very dry indoor conditions, such as my native New England. You need to humidify the room where they are stored or the case.

I actually use a spruce reed- it doesn’t mind dried-out winters that much, but the tone isn’t quite as sweet, and some of the notes are a bit more finicky with regards to the correct pressure. I’m eventually going to have a cane reed made (you can’t order them off the shelf- they are tailored for specific chanters) and invest in a humidifier.

Oh, they’re also considerably more expensive than highland reeds, but last forever with proper care.

[SPCsound]

I had a used practice set fall into my lap. I'm rather blessed in my area of the world to have a number of very good pipers in the area, so I immediately began lessons.

The biggest thing I'd tell you: It's a new instrument. Don't try to "port over" GHB technique. Treat it as a completely separate, new technique.
Next: While reading music can be useful, being able to hear and play back music is way more important. I've been playing for a number of years now, and I don't think I've ever learned a tune on uillleann pipes by dots on paper. Better to record your teacher playing it slowly.

Just get yourself a practice set. You can always add drones later, but the chanter alone can give you plenty to work on for several years.

[Patrick McLaurin]

Regarding a practice set, if you get one, resist the temptation to make the reed harder because it seems way too easy to play. Cause you’ll just be easing it back up when you’ve added drones which is where the real air consumption is!

As far as not porting things over from highland piping, I dunno. Lots of “high A” grace notes (instead of “high G”), the darado bubbly note is exactly the same, dre/edre fairly useful. Of course there’s no one to get lessons from in West Texas so I’m just noodling and doing my best to imitate what sounds more Irish and less Scottish.

[Silmakhor]

For anybody who is teacherless, I *highly* recommend going to a Tionol/piper’s gathering and interacting with a human. It will save months or years of frustration. And they are an absolute blast.

[Andrew Evans]

"And they are an absolute blast."

humans? or a Tionol?

[Silmakhor]

"And they are an absolute blast."

humans? or a Tionol?

Well played.

[Graineag]

Sorry I'm late to the party here, but as I'm sure this is something that uilleann-curious GHB & Scottish bellows pipers will continue to seek information about, here are my two cents.

First of all, think carefully about why you want to learn uilleann pipes and what you hope to do with them. It's not necessarily wrong if you just want to dabble with them a bit, provided you have the money to devote many thousands of dollars to just dabbling with something. If you do wish to learn Irish traditional music on the uilleann pipes, play them in a traditional style, and participate in Irish music sessions, etc., understand that you will be taking on a very significant commitment involving a great deal of time, energy, mental focus... and, of course, money.

Many of the previous comments about differences between GHB and uilleann pipes have been spot-on, so I won't go into repeating them. If you're not already a competent tin whistle player (i.e., playing whistle in a traditional style, not attempting to just use GHB tunes and ornaments on a whistle), become one first, even if whistle isn't really your thing. (FWIW, it's not my thing either, but it's still crucially important.)

If you're already a competent player of Scottish bellows pipes, then you MAY be able to start with a half set provided you have the patience to leave the drones switched off for at least a few months (ideally until your uilleann pipe teacher says you're ready to try using them). There can be some benefit from starting with a half set because sometimes when starting with a practice set, you get used to having the bag at a weird angle under your arm, and you have to completely relearn how to hold the pipes once you add the stock and drones. However, this is often outweighed by the risk of dicking around with the drones too early before developing good bellows technique.

Speaking of which, even if you're already an experienced SSP/border pipes player, you may need to start from scratch learning bellows technique on the uilleann pipes as they can feel quite a bit different. (Your mileage may vary, of course.) Don't expect to just pick up an uilleann pipe chanter and start knocking out "the Kesh Jig." Start by holding a back D and work on keeping the note completely rock steady for AT LEAST a full minute. Remember that the bag arm should do most of the work; the bellows are there just to top up the bag. Hamish Moore's old advice to think of your bag arm on bellows pipes as equal to blowing into the GHB and bellows stroke as equal to taking a breath on GHB and compensating with your arm may be helpful to remember here.

I cannot over-emphasize the above step enough. If you cannot hold a steady back D on the uilleann pipes chanter, you will never successfully play the uilleann pipes PERIOD. Over the years, I've encountered more than a few people who have lacked the patience and self discipline to do this. They have never been able to play in tune--with themselves, let alone anyone else--and they likely never will.

As for where to get a set, obviously it goes without saying that you should avoid anything from Pakistan (Hakam Din, Geoffrey, etc.), but you probably already know that.

Don't try to plug an uilleann pipe chanter into an SSP or border pipe bag. It can be done, but the bag isn't the right shape, and uilleann pipes need significantly more pressure than SSP.

For a long time David Daye's pennychanters and practice sets were the budget-friendly set of choice for people looking to explore uilleann pipes without selling a kidney. Five or six years ago, a friend of mine who is a top-drawer GHB piper tried to order a practice set from him. It took nearly two years for him to receive it, and the quality of the chanter reed was not as high as previous pennychanters I'd seen, so I feel a bit less sure about recommending that route anymore.

The relative availability of the Fred Morrison/McCallum uilleann pipes has made them a popular choice among GHB pipers curious to try the uilleann pipes. I've only heard a few sets up close. One half set I heard sounded decent. This is just my opinion, but based on what I've seen (and also what I've heard from other uilleann pipers and pipemakers), they would not be my first choice for anyone serious about learning uilleann pipes and looking for a high-quality instrument.

An alternative that I'd feel a bit better about recommending would be Breton pipemaker Xavier Boderiou's uilleann pipes. You will pay a higher premium for them, but the quality control seems better, and most importantly, the quality of his reeds is excellent. I don't know what his waitlist is like these days, but it's still probably a bit shorter than most other uilleann pipe makers.

Another good maker with reasonable prices based here in the USA is Brian Bigley.

I played Tjones79's Carbony chanter, and I found it to be pretty decent. I was pleasantly surprised by this because I've found some of Carbony's other pipes and flutes to be somewhat dubious (although I know that Seán Gavin plays one of his F flutes and apparently loves it).

Plenty of used uilleann pipe practice and half sets come up for sale. If you see one that looks interesting to you, posting about it here or on the Facebook uilleann piping groups will probably result with some helpful opinions and advice.

Hope that helps.

[Silmakhor]

Used UP sets from a reputable maker are the way to go.

[paul_111]

Sorry I'm late to the party here, but as I'm sure this is something that uilleann-curious GHB & Scottish bellows pipers will continue to seek information about, here are my two cents.

<snip>

Hope that helps.

Thanks for coming to the party! The info you provided is very helpful!

Paul

[pancelticpiper]

Is it possible to put a Uilleann Pipes chanter into a bellow blown Scottish Smallpipes bag and use it as a practice set, shutting off the drones?

The uilleann bag shape, and where the bag sits under the arm, are different. Uilleann bags, and where you hold them, have to be different due to playing seated and stopping the chanter on the leg. The uilleann chanter itself is held diagonally, not vertically.

The full need for the traditional uilleann bag and chanter positions happens when you start playing the regs.